Who would be to blame if EU negotiations break down and we leave with no deal? Watch

Poll: Who would be to blame?
The EU (13)
13.68%
The government (35)
36.84%
Parliament (as a whole) (17)
17.89%
May’s Government (5)
5.26%
The ERG (12)
12.63%
The remain alliance. (13)
13.68%
ColinDent
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#41
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#41
(Original post by 999tigger)
You are ignoring the fact referendums are advisory only.
I agree we should have an election.
Boris has been a massive cause if the issue as they have prevented Mays deal going anywhere, hence its amusing to see him halted by the same tactics he used on May.

If they start from scratch the damage will be done for some people. A big mess that will continue to divide the country because it was flawed.
This big mess as you put it will not go away if we abandon leaving the EU, it will simply get bigger.
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SHallowvale
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#42
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#42
(Original post by ColinDent)
I'm saying that all those arguments made by all those remainer MP's about not knowing how to leave because they didn't know what those who voted to leave actually meant are just false arguments, because we know what the majority of us voted for and that is the issue.
Had remain won we wouldn't then have been asking if people meant remain as it is, or with deeper integration or even remain but carry on attempting renegotiation, we would have just remained.
The vote to leave should result in exactly that and nothing less.
Parliament wouldn't have to have acted upon anything if we voted to remain. By voting to leave parliament must do something, which is why questions are raised about how people expected we should leave in 2016. We can't 'just leave' because being non-members wasn't the default and existing position.

We did not vote on how to leave in 2016, so MPs and others are right in saying we do not know what leave voters wanted in 2016. How people voted in an election three years after doesn't necessarily reflect the intentions behind the 2016 vote.
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ColinDent
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#43
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#43
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Parliament wouldn't have to have acted upon anything if we voted to remain. By voting to leave parliament must do something, which is why questions are raised about how people expected we should leave in 2016. We can't 'just leave' because being non-members wasn't the default and existing position.

We did not vote on how to leave in 2016, so MPs and others are right in saying we do not know what leave voters wanted in 2016. How people voted in an election three years after doesn't necessarily reflect the intentions behind the 2016 vote.
It's a bloody good indication though.
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SHallowvale
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#44
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#44
(Original post by ColinDent)
It's a bloody good indication though.
Not really, no.

Firstly, the turnout for the EU election was abysmal compared to the turnout of the referendum. It's entirely possible that it disproportionately favoured the extreme ends of the Brexit debate if the only people who bothered to turn up were the people who held those positions. If turnouts matched, or were very similar, then you may have a point... but they didn't.

Secondly, no deal wasn't seriously discussed during 2016. The mood at the time, at least from what I had read/seen, was that we would leave the EU with a trade deal. Vote Leave explicitly presented this as their policy and other prominent leave campaigners made it clear that we should be leaving the EU with one. Remember 'they need us more than we need them'?
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TheMcSame
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#45
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#45
You can throw the blame whichever way you want. The fact is that the public voted and we got a result. So who is to blame? Parliament.

Instead of coming together to find a solution, everyone segregated. Instead of compromise, everyone just straight-lined to their own ideas with zero consideration of the public opinion laid out by the vote.

We had a group trying to give the public what they voted for
A group that was hard brexit
A group that was trying to make some sort of compromise
A group that was remain only
Then we had the SNP whinging away in the corner about an independent Scotland joining the EU. HA! With a deficit like that? Good luck supporting that ageing population of yours when you turn your backs on the UK and the EU doesn't want you either because of the said deficit.

Instead of constructive actions, they took it on themselves to bicker away for 3 years and get absolutely nowhere. Yes, some people played more of a part than others, but had parliament as a whole decided to use their time sensibly rather than arguing about the result of a vote, we might have actually had some sort of deal by now.
Last edited by TheMcSame; 2 weeks ago
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Burton Bridge
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#46
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#46
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Not really, no.

Firstly, the turnout for the EU election was abysmal compared to the turnout of the referendum. It's entirely possible that it disproportionately favoured the extreme ends of the Brexit debate if the only people who bothered to turn up were the people who held those positions. If turnouts matched, or were very similar, then you may have a point... but they didn't.

Secondly, no deal wasn't seriously discussed during 2016. The mood at the time, at least from what I had read/seen, was that we would leave the EU with a trade deal. Vote Leave explicitly presented this as their policy and other prominent leave campaigners made it clear that we should be leaving the EU with one. Remember 'they need us more than we need them'?
1) I'm not a believer in using turnout as a tool against anything regarding results of democratic elections. If you dont show you dont count in democracy, that's the rules I'm afraid. However while we are on the subject of democracy and turn out, I do think turnout for the EU elections provides proof of the fake concern for remaining in the EU shown by some hard core groups. I mean the turn out for the European elections was high in comparison to other previous European elections. Quite litterally remainers are more or less absent from electing their beloved MEPs, that's why farage has had so much success and been an MEP for years. If there was a tiny fraction of genuine passion for remaining in the EU farage would not get a look in European elections, in reality its leavers as a majority that vote in the EU elections, most remainers pre 2016 didn't even know they existed, it of they did they cared so little they never voted.

2) No deal was talked about a lot, although I dont think anybody would want no deal. A Canada deal is the ideal for leavers which unfortunately was rejected.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 2 weeks ago
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barnetlad
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#47
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#47
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Not really, no.

Firstly, the turnout for the EU election was abysmal compared to the turnout of the referendum. It's entirely possible that it disproportionately favoured the extreme ends of the Brexit debate if the only people who bothered to turn up were the people who held those positions. If turnouts matched, or were very similar, then you may have a point... but they didn't.

Secondly, no deal wasn't seriously discussed during 2016. The mood at the time, at least from what I had read/seen, was that we would leave the EU with a trade deal. Vote Leave explicitly presented this as their policy and other prominent leave campaigners made it clear that we should be leaving the EU with one. Remember 'they need us more than we need them'?
We should have a referendum, preferably a deal vs remain.
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SHallowvale
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#48
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#48
(Original post by barnetlad)
We should have a referendum, preferably a deal vs remain.
Agreed, although I would prefer something which included no deal and at least one deal option.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#49
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#49
EU at fault for the UK’s antics for 3 years lol???

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ColinDent
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#50
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#50
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Not really, no.

Firstly, the turnout for the EU election was abysmal compared to the turnout of the referendum. It's entirely possible that it disproportionately favoured the extreme ends of the Brexit debate if the only people who bothered to turn up were the people who held those positions. If turnouts matched, or were very similar, then you may have a point... but they didn't.

Secondly, no deal wasn't seriously discussed during 2016. The mood at the time, at least from what I had read/seen, was that we would leave the EU with a trade deal. Vote Leave explicitly presented this as their policy and other prominent leave campaigners made it clear that we should be leaving the EU with one. Remember 'they need us more than we need them'?
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Agreed, although I would prefer something which included no deal and at least one deal option.
To split the leave vote no doubt.
I would prefer just no deal or a deal option, no remain one.
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SHallowvale
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#51
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#51
(Original post by ColinDent)
To split the leave vote no doubt.
I would prefer just no deal or a deal option, no remain one.
Not at all. A referendum with three or more options should involved ranked voting, which wouldn't split the leave vote.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
1) I'm not a believer in using turnout as a tool against anything regarding results of democratic elections. If you dont show you dont count in democracy, that's the rules I'm afraid. However while we are on the subject of democracy and turn out, I do think turnout for the EU elections provides proof of the fake concern for remaining in the EU shown by some hard core groups. I mean the turn out for the European elections was high in comparison to other previous European elections. Quite litterally remainers are more or less absent from electing their beloved MEPs, that's why farage has had so much success and been an MEP for years. If there was a tiny fraction of genuine passion for remaining in the EU farage would not get a look in European elections, in reality its leavers as a majority that vote in the EU elections, most remainers pre 2016 didn't even know they existed, it of they did they cared so little they never voted.

2) No deal was talked about a lot, although I dont think anybody would want no deal. A Canada deal is the ideal for leavers which unfortunately was rejected.
I agree that 'If you don't show up you don't count' when it comes to electing people and making a decision (such as in a referendum), but when we're talking about using one election to gauge the opinions of people from a prior election then it is important. What you've described is one of the reason why we shouldn't use the 2019 EU elections as an indicator of what people thought in the 2016 referendum.

Can you provided examples of when a no deal was mentioned "a lot"? You're correct that a Canada deal was mentioned often. A Norway/Swiss style deal was also frequently mentioned/brought up.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#52
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#52


Secretly glad they c**ed up the negotiation and thankful to the ERG pushing us closer to another referendum which seemed so remote back in 2016
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999tigger
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#53
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#53
(Original post by ColinDent)
This big mess as you put it will not go away if we abandon leaving the EU, it will simply get bigger.
Except it could be an even bigger mess economically, which is the big unknown.
The only way you have of sorting it out is an election with one party getting a mandate to get it through, that way they can override the DUP. I dont think as many people care about the backstop as is made out. What people forget is Mays deal was only ever temporary and we could be half way through it by now. The referendum as is and everything thats followed imo is one of the biggest waste of time and poisonous things for the UK in modern history. It wont stop after we have left.

Wouldnt surprise me in future if theres another one about rejoining.
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ColinDent
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#54
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#54
(Original post by 999tigger)
Except it could be an even bigger mess economically, which is the big unknown.
The only way you have of sorting it out is an election with one party getting a mandate to get it through, that way they can override the DUP. I dont think as many people care about the backstop as is made out. What people forget is Mays deal was only ever temporary and we could be half way through it by now. The referendum as is and everything thats followed imo is one of the biggest waste of time and poisonous things for the UK in modern history. It wont stop after we have left.

Wouldnt surprise me in future if theres another one about rejoining.
I agree with you about having a general election.
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Burton Bridge
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#55
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#55
(Original post by SHallowvale)
Not at all. A referendum with three or more options should involved ranked voting, which wouldn't split the leave vote.


I agree that 'If you don't show up you don't count' when it comes to electing people and making a decision (such as in a referendum), but when we're talking about using one election to gauge the opinions of people from a prior election then it is important. What you've described is one of the reason why we shouldn't use the 2019 EU elections as an indicator of what people thought in the 2016 referendum.

Can you provided examples of when a no deal was mentioned "a lot"? You're correct that a Canada deal was mentioned often. A Norway/Swiss style deal was also frequently mentioned/brought up.
On you're point to coilin thatsca non starter due to the referendum act mate, plus it will give our hand away to the EU. It's got to be a simple choice fair to both sides.

Anyway I think that reply is fair TBH, I can see what you say not so sure i agree with it. I'm going to be honest I've just done a quick Google and come up with nothing! But I clearly remember mainly remain campaigners talking about the dangers of leave, including no deal. I can clearly remember Oliver letwin talking about it on TV. Leaving the single market and customs union were openly talked about a lot and I can prove that. However maybe I have over estimated how much no deal was spoken about? I do remember hearing about it and I trust my memory I'm not that old ... yet

(Original post by barnetlad)
We should have a referendum, preferably a deal vs remain.
No if that the case it has to be revoke or leave. Remain has departed, we cannot just pretend the last 3 or 4 years never happened. We must start being honest.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 2 weeks ago
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999tigger
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#56
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#56
(Original post by ColinDent)
I agree with you about having a general election.
This si where Labour have been scandalous, but Boris can hardly complain as he has spent years playing games and trying to destroy May. All as bad as each other.
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ColinDent
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#57
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#57
(Original post by 999tigger)
This si where Labour have been scandalous, but Boris can hardly complain as he has spent years playing games and trying to destroy May. All as bad as each other.
The fact that Boris is so far ahead in the polls is testimony to how shocking a job Jezza is making of leading the opposition.
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_Wellies_
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#58
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#58
If Brexiters had spent less time looking for someone else to blame for the Brexit debacle, they would have had Brexit a long time ago.

But who are we kidding. We are the most obese nation in Europe. Such personal responsibility is an alien concept to most Brits.
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999tigger
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#59
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#59
(Original post by ColinDent)
The fact that Boris is so far ahead in the polls is testimony to how shocking a job Jezza is making of leading the opposition.
Will have to wait and see how it falls out. Boris is just in it for himself. Doesnt strike me as a man of integrity or conviction.
There is a third party in this, which are those millions who didnt vote in the referendum and are sick of it.
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ColinDent
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#60
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#60
(Original post by _Wellies_)
If Brexiters had spent less time looking for someone else to blame for the Brexit debacle, they would have had Brexit a long time ago.

But who are we kidding. We are the most obese nation in Europe. Such personal responsibility is an alien concept to most Brits.
Of course, fancy laying any blame at the feet of those that were elected under the banner of respecting the referendum but subsequently did as much as they could to frustrate the process, what are we thinking.
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