Who would be to blame if EU negotiations break down and we leave with no deal? Watch

Poll: Who would be to blame?
The EU (13)
13.68%
The government (35)
36.84%
Parliament (as a whole) (17)
17.89%
May’s Government (5)
5.26%
The ERG (12)
12.63%
The remain alliance. (13)
13.68%
ColinDent
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#61
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#61
(Original post by 999tigger)
Will have to wait and see how it falls out. Boris is just in it for himself. Doesnt strike me as a man of integrity or conviction.
There is a third party in this, which are those millions who didnt vote in the referendum and are sick of it.
We'll see.
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Napp
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#62
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#62
(Original post by Justvisited)
One thing the Remain campaign never said, because it dared not say it, was that the EU would try to pull all sorts of tricks to keep the UK in de facto even if they voted to leave. If anything the fact that the EU have indeed being doing this is a further cogent argument not to trust them and not to continue part of them.
And what 'tricks' exactly have they pulled?
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Napp
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Impossible to be general levers fault, the blame has to be placed on those who have made it a cluster**** as you put it.

I fail to see how this is the fault if anyone other than remainer parliamentarians who stood on pro brexit manifestos, acting dishonesty to gain the poltical points.
Again, because they voted for it the onus of responsibility is entirely on them. The idea that all politicians should support brexit is simply farcical though.
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Napp
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#64
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#64
(Original post by ColinDent)
Yet when the intention of those who did vote to leave is made clearer by say, oh I don't know, a massive vote for the brexit party in the EU elections, it is then ignored as fact and that particular argument is put on the back burner.
As you can see from the following info in areas that voted to leave the brexit party surged and Labour in particular struggled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131
Uhuh ummm remind me how many people actually voted in the EU elections for filth like farage? I think youll find it was hardly 'massive'.
Quite possibly because of the aforementioned point i just made. the fact of the matter is there is not a shred of evidence supporting any kind of majority wanting a hard brexit, every single poll has consistently said this is a load of rubbish. Now either you're ignorant of these facts or you're being dishonest with your interpretation of them?

Again maybe so but aside from the aforementioned point, once again, we also seem to be ignoring the rather basic fact that this was in the EU elections, something that has traditionally been on marginally more popular then local elections... i.e. a complete joke and not something you can use as a reliable gauge of public opinion as most people couldnt give a monkeys for them and thus do not vote. I challenge you to find 10 people who actually know who their MEP is without googling the answer.
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ColinDent
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#65
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#65
(Original post by Napp)
Uhuh ummm remind me how many people actually voted in the EU elections for filth like farage? I think youll find it was hardly 'massive'.
Quite possibly because of the aforementioned point i just made. the fact of the matter is there is not a shred of evidence supporting any kind of majority wanting a hard brexit, every single poll has consistently said this is a load of rubbish. Now either you're ignorant of these facts or you're being dishonest with your interpretation of them?

Again maybe so but aside from the aforementioned point, once again, we also seem to be ignoring the rather basic fact that this was in the EU elections, something that has traditionally been on marginally more popular then local elections... i.e. a complete joke and not something you can use as a reliable gauge of public opinion as most people couldnt give a monkeys for them and thus do not vote. I challenge you to find 10 people who actually know who their MEP is without googling the answer.
I know mine, it's Anne Widdecombe.
It is still a barometer though, I don't recall there being a massive swell of support throughout the country for remaining in the EU either.
Last edited by ColinDent; 2 weeks ago
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Napp
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#66
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#66
(Original post by ColinDent)
I know mine, it's Anne Widdecombe.
*Shudders*
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HiViz9
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#67
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#67
(1) Lack of true leadership for this country. A true leader would have taken us out of the EU a long time ago.
(2) The sore losers - the remainers and remoaners who can not accept the democratic referendum result for LEAVE the EU.
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ColinDent
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#68
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#68
(Original post by Napp)
*Shudders*
Like the EU parliament has been ever since she was voted in.
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Napp
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#69
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#69
(Original post by ColinDent)
Like the EU parliament has been ever since she was voted in.
Uhuh :lol: Last time i checked the EU Parliament wasnt a gay/****** bashing affair with a penchant for advocating hanging people... With all things being considered, your MEP is a vile excuse for a human being.
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Jammy Duel
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#70
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#70
Everybody, the EU because they were never willing to offer a good deal, and the UK leavers for daring to make reasonable suggestions, and the UK remainers for not accepting May's deal when given the chance (which is basically what they all want anyway)
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Burton Bridge
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Napp)
Uhuh ummm remind me how many people actually voted in the EU elections for filth like farage? I think youll find it was hardly 'massive'.
Quite possibly because of the aforementioned point i just made. the fact of the matter is there is not a shred of evidence supporting any kind of majority wanting a hard brexit, every single poll has consistently said this is a load of rubbish. Now either you're ignorant of these facts or you're being dishonest with your interpretation of them?

Again maybe so but aside from the aforementioned point, once again, we also seem to be ignoring the rather basic fact that this was in the EU elections, something that has traditionally been on marginally more popular then local elections... i.e. a complete joke and not something you can use as a reliable gauge of public opinion as most people couldnt give a monkeys for them and thus do not vote. I challenge you to find 10 people who actually know who their MEP is without googling the answer.
Ok firstly calling a person you dont like filth is bad form mate. I'm not entirely convinced he is genuine myself but hes not filth for wanting to leave the EU, is he?

Regards the evidence for a hard Brexit, there is plenty of evidence, for a start people knew when they voted for Brexit we would leave the CU and SM which is what is broadly considered a hard Brexit nowadays. Saying otherwise is a consistent lie told by hard core remainers.

https://youtu.be/Qi9pcKDh7fU

I dont see how this shows ignorance or any dishonestly in particular when the Brexit party won considerably more votes than any other party, and gained the status of the biggest party in the entire European union, on one policy of no deal alone, so come on let's be honest here.

Now you are correct, that the European elections and the European parliament is (to use your own words) a complete joke most people couldnt give a monkeys for them and thus do not vote. I agree with you, this is exactly the point I have been making since 2016 which proves the fact that remainers are fake regarding their concern for leaving and certainly in pseudo passion for the European union. In reality most remainers dont give a toss, if they did farage would not of been an MEP for years on end. The EU meps are a joke that none knows and the brexit party as the biggest party in the entire European union can do what. ... about nothing, democracy the EU way.
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Burton Bridge
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#72
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#72
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
the UK remainers for not accepting May's deal when given the chance (which is basically what they all want anyway)
Bang on with that mate
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 2 weeks ago
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Burton Bridge
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#73
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#73
(Original post by Napp)
Again, because they voted for it the onus of responsibility is entirely on them. The idea that all politicians should support brexit is simply farcical though.
Not at all, we live in a parliamentary democracy. Parliamentarians control what happens including giving us the referendum in the first place.

Parliamentarians have been dishonest, stood on false promises and acted ag8the nation interest. It us impossible to be any body else fault other than the people with the power.
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Napp
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#74
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#74
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Ok firstly calling a person you dont like filth is bad form mate. I'm not entirely convinced he is genuine myself but hes not filth for wanting to leave the EU, is he?
Quite possibly but i'm willing to sully my own name for the sake of insulting this fatuous egotist.
Regards the evidence for a hard Brexit, there is plenty of evidence, for a start people knew when they voted for Brexit we would leave the CU and SM which is what is broadly considered a hard Brexit nowadays. Saying otherwise is a consistent lie told by hard core remainers.
I wouldnt exactly call that proof people want a hard brexit... at any rate i stand by my comments vis-a-vis a hard brexit in my previous post.

I dont see how this shows ignorance or any dishonestly in particular when the Brexit party won considerably more votes than any other party, and gained the status of the biggest party in the entire European union, on one policy of no deal alone, so come on let's be honest here.
I'm not saying its not indicative of certain peoples opinions what i am saying is that you cant use a small cross section to label the rest of the country with. I mean the voting figures speak for themselves in turnout... Never mind the fact that remain parties won a fairly nice proportion of the vote...
Now you are correct, that the European elections and the European parliament is (to use your own words) a complete joke most people couldnt give a monkeys for them and thus do not vote. I agree with you, this is exactly the point I have been making since 2016 which proves the fact that remainers are fake regarding their concern for leaving and certainly in pseudo passion for the European union. In reality most remainers dont give a toss, if they did farage would not of been an MEP for years on end. The EU meps are a joke that none knows and the brexit party as the biggest party in the entire European union can do what. ... about nothing, democracy the EU way.
Maybe so but it does beg the question of why theyre a complete joke? Now i cant speak for other european countries but there has been a fairly consistant policy of denigrating the EU in British politics for decades now so theres little wonder people havent got a clue about it - be they remainers or leavers. At any rate i stand by my comparison with local politics, however we wouldnt use the rationale that just because its a joke we should abolish local government would we?
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Not at all, we live in a parliamentary democracy. Parliamentarians control what happens including giving us the referendum in the first place.
Technically we live in a representitive democracy, which is fairly key in this debate in that we give up any say in how the country is run once we elect someone. If they go against you wishes youre more than welcome to give them the boot at the next election but that is about it. As for your next comment;
Parliamentarians have been dishonest, stood on false promises and acted ag8the nation interest. It us impossible to be any body else fault other than the people with the power.
This is nothing especially new though is it, i mean especially with manifestos the entire document always has been and always will be chock full of fibs.

Are we discussing the nations interest or the national interest sorry? With the two being fairly different. After all as far as the national interest goes being part of Europe has been it for the past several decades and making sure we have a chief say in what happens in europe goes back centuries.
As to the nations interest, well, we just go back to this delightful circular argument we;ve been having for quite some time now. Although it does go back to the representative democracy point

I'd be more inclined to blame the ERG and their acolytes for promising a pipe dream that is manifestly rubbish. After all they promised a brexit where you could keep all the benefits of being in Europe without being in it... as i said this is obviously a lie.
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fallen_acorns
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#75
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#75
shocked by the poll...

12.24% think that the group who just passed a bill to force the PM not to leave without a deal...

Would be responsible if we leave without a deal.

A further 10% believe that its the fault of an organization who expressively don't want a deal, and are acting 100% in line with a path to keep us in the EU... will also be responsible.

makes sense.
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ColinDent
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#76
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#76
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
shocked by the poll...

12.24% think that the group who just passed a bill to force the PM not to leave without a deal...

Would be responsible if we leave without a deal.

A further 10% believe that its the fault of an organization who expressively don't want a deal, and are acting 100% in line with a path to keep us in the EU... will also be responsible.

makes sense.
It does make sense when you think about it though, had these people acted in a way which was not just trying to block us leaving then just maybe we may have come up with a better deal in the first place, one which would have been accepted in the first place.
All these shenanigans by both sides in the case of the EU and the UK, and all sides within parliament, has stopped any proper negotiations being possible and has ultimately led to the situation we are now in, which is to say that now the only 2 real outcomes are no deal brexit or a revokation of A50 ,which in my opinion would then lead to a general election resulting in a majority conservative government backed by the DUP and a handful of Brexit Party MP's all supporting a no deal brexit and us leaving on those terms.
It really is a lose/lose situation for remain MP's right now.
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nexttime
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#77
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#77
Cameron unquestionably.

This is a highly technical decision that in no way should have ever gone to referendum, and there was no reason why it had to be just in/out or even a 50% threshold to leave (most independence referenda require higher) even if he did make one. He did it without any thought at all and the result is plain.

As soon as the vote was made, our political system was always going to tear itself apart over which specific way to **** the country - May an Bojo honestly could never ever have done a good job under the circumstances.
Last edited by nexttime; 1 week ago
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SHallowvale
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#78
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#78
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
On you're point to coilin thatsca non starter due to the referendum act mate, plus it will give our hand away to the EU. It's got to be a simple choice fair to both sides.

Anyway I think that reply is fair TBH, I can see what you say not so sure i agree with it. I'm going to be honest I've just done a quick Google and come up with nothing! But I clearly remember mainly remain campaigners talking about the dangers of leave, including no deal. I can clearly remember Oliver letwin talking about it on TV. Leaving the single market and customs union were openly talked about a lot and I can prove that. However maybe I have over estimated how much no deal was spoken about? I do remember hearing about it and I trust my memory I'm not that old ... yet
What section(s) of the referendum act would be broken if we put a multiple-choice vote to the public?

From memory, the dangers of leaving without a deal were mentioned by remainers but had always been passed off as 'Project Fear' by leavers. Easiest trade deal in human history and all that...
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SHallowvale
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#79
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#79
(Original post by ColinDent)
It does make sense when you think about it though, had these people acted in a way which was not just trying to block us leaving then just maybe we may have come up with a better deal in the first place, one which would have been accepted in the first place.
All these shenanigans by both sides in the case of the EU and the UK, and all sides within parliament, has stopped any proper negotiations being possible and has ultimately led to the situation we are now in, which is to say that now the only 2 real outcomes are no deal brexit or a revokation of A50 ,which in my opinion would then lead to a general election resulting in a majority conservative government backed by the DUP and a handful of Brexit Party MP's all supporting a no deal brexit and us leaving on those terms.
It really is a lose/lose situation for remain MP's right now.
"...had these people acted in a way which was not just trying to block us leaving then just maybe we may have come up with a better deal in the first place, one which would have been accepted in the first place." - How?

"All these shenanigans by both sides in the case of the EU and the UK, and all sides within parliament, has stopped any proper negotiations being possible" - How?
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ColinDent
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#80
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#80
(Original post by SHallowvale)
"...had these people acted in a way which was not just trying to block us leaving then just maybe we may have come up with a better deal in the first place, one which would have been accepted in the first place." - How?

"All these shenanigans by both sides in the case of the EU and the UK, and all sides within parliament, has stopped any proper negotiations being possible" - How?
If you cannot see then I can't be arsed to explain it to you, but I think that the majority of the public see it that way, even many who voted to remain in the referendum.
It is opinion of course but I am allowed one of those, pesky for we members of the hoi polloi to do so.
To be honest it's such an obvious statement that I'm surprised that anyone cannot see it to be true, unless of course they were trying somehow to obsfucate in order to confuse a number of people on some sort of forum.
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