Parliament must reject the latest Boris 'deal' proposal and call for a 2nd referendum Watch

Fullofsurprises
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The deal that Boris and the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, are now working on clearly indicates that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, leaving only Northern Ireland suspended temporarily in some sort of 'in/out' limbo acceptable to the DUP and Dublin.

Yet this deal, if passed, will wreck the UK economy.

Car manufacturers will leave in droves - only today, Nissan have warned in the strongest terms that the tariffs of 10% to be imposed by the EU on UK-made vehicles will make being in the UK unviable. This is almost a million jobs.

Food supplies and numerous other industries will be disrupted, as their current production models rely on smooth border flows, that will no longer exist cross-channel.

There will be massive extra burdens of bureaucracy on UK exporters, causing many to withdraw from exporting and adding to our balance of payments deficit.

The pound will plunge to new lows, causing inflation on both food and non-food items. The era of things like cheap imported computers, phones and other electronics will have ended.

The UK will not be able to call on large numbers of European workers who sustain the ordinary work of our economy and make the UK viable, doing all the many jobs that British people don't want to do.

It will be terrible.

This is OUR government planning to do this to OUR country.

Absolutely incredible and purely because a small, highly ideological, extremist faction have taken control of the Tory Party and are being served by their supine liar-in-chief with what they want to hear.

It will be a patriotic act for all existing MPs to vote this down.

We shall then see if Boris Johnson and the Tory extremist ERG are actual democrats, or not.
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Andrew97
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And what will the options be?
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Andrew97)
And what will the options be?
Do you support the deal proposed by Boris? Or do you prefer now to stay in the EU?
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Andrew97
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Do you support the deal proposed by Boris? Or do you prefer now to stay in the EU?
That would not have any legitimacy. It’s just two options that have been rejected.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Andrew97)
That would not have any legitimacy. It’s just two options that have been rejected.
I'm sure you'd say that about any questions.

Clearly, the point of a second referendum is to offer all those many voters who have now seen what the sort of Brexit that Tory and Brexit Party extremists want will really mean to reconsider.
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Andrew97
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I'm sure you'd say that about any questions.

Clearly, the point of a second referendum is to offer all those many voters who have now seen what the sort of Brexit that Tory and Brexit Party extremists want will really mean to reconsider.
No. The point of a second referendum is to overturn the 1st. Otherwise remain would not be on the ballot paper.

Until we leave, a second vote is not legitimate and opens a can of worms. Why would any side accept the result 2nd time round?
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The deal that Boris and the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, are now working on clearly indicates that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, leaving only Northern Ireland suspended temporarily in some sort of 'in/out' limbo acceptable to the DUP and Dublin.

Yet this deal, if passed, will wreck the UK economy.

Car manufacturers will leave in droves - only today, Nissan have warned in the strongest terms that the tariffs of 10% to be imposed by the EU on UK-made vehicles will make being in the UK unviable. This is almost a million jobs.

Food supplies and numerous other industries will be disrupted, as their current production models rely on smooth border flows, that will no longer exist cross-channel.

There will be massive extra burdens of bureaucracy on UK exporters, causing many to withdraw from exporting and adding to our balance of payments deficit.

The pound will plunge to new lows, causing inflation on both food and non-food items. The era of things like cheap imported computers, phones and other electronics will have ended.

The UK will not be able to call on large numbers of European workers who sustain the ordinary work of our economy and make the UK viable, doing all the many jobs that British people don't want to do.

It will be terrible.

This is OUR government planning to do this to OUR country.

Absolutely incredible and purely because a small, highly ideological, extremist faction have taken control of the Tory Party and are being served by their supine liar-in-chief with what they want to hear.

It will be a patriotic act for all existing MPs to vote this down.

We shall then see if Boris Johnson and the Tory extremist ERG are actual democrats, or not.
Two points of order before i address your main thread..

1) If there is a deal, tarrifs will not be imposed. You are conflating Deal/No Deal criticism.

2) Morgan Stanley and HSBC actually expect Sterling to appreciate if there is a deal. Again, you are conflating Deal/No Deal.

Now regarding your thread title it is actually interesting. There is now talk and a split because on Sat 19th the hard remoaners like Benn want to put forward a neverendum whereas the Corbyn loyalists and SNP (they want an election before Salmond's rape trial in January) are said to want an election.

If there is a deal put to the House of course it actually looks likely to pass. Of the 30 needed in MV3, 40 are now nominally on board (the Lab 27, Norman Lamb, 2 ERG cabinet ministers and the DUP). It will be interesting to see what the remoaner reaction will be.
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ColinDent
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Oh no, woe betide a deal being agreed that may lead to a sensible trade deal!
You may aswell go and stand outside the houses of parliament and shout STOP BREXIIIT with that loser, because that's all you really want.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Two points of order before i address your main thread..

1) If there is a deal, tarrifs will not be imposed. You are conflating Deal/No Deal criticism.

2) Morgan Stanley and HSBC actually expect Sterling to appreciate if there is a deal. Again, you are conflating Deal/No Deal.

Now regarding your thread title it is actually interesting. There is now talk and a split because on Sat 19th the hard remoaners like Benn want to put forward a neverendum whereas the Corbyn loyalists and SNP (they want an election before Salmond's rape trial in January) are said to want an election.

If there is a deal put to the House of course it actually looks likely to pass. Of the 30 needed in MV3, 40 are now nominally on board (the Lab 27, Norman Lamb, 2 ERG cabinet ministers and the DUP). It will be interesting to see what the remoaner reaction will be.
Only if the deal infers remaining in the CU. It looks as if the deal Boris will put forward is significantly different to the one negotiated by May as it takes us out of the CU and therefore there will be a mass of tariffs. For sure, there wouldn't be if we then had a sensible FTA with the EU, but alas, we won't, for many years most likely.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Only if the deal infers remaining in the CU. It looks as if the deal Boris will put forward is significantly different to the one negotiated by May as it takes us out of the CU and therefore there will be a mass of tariffs. For sure, there wouldn't be if we then had a sensible FTA with the EU, but alas, we won't, for many years most likely.
Until the end of 2020 (or later) we have a transition period and afterwards we are able to main zero tariffs so long as free trade negotiations are ongoing. So tariffs may come if the negotiations collapse but that won’t be for a few years.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Until the end of 2020 (or later) we have a transition period and afterwards we are able to main zero tariffs so long as free trade negotiations are ongoing. So tariffs may come if the negotiations collapse but that won’t be for a few years.
Yes, except that as soon as it's clear that we are leaving the CU and the SM (eg, pretty much now or at least in a week or two) industry will know that they are now doomed if they stay here and so the chronic economic decline that is now inevitable will begin in earnest, indeed, many companies are already preparing to leave, abandoning growth plans, etc.

The kind of Brexit we are entering will probably not even be all that good for the City-based crooks and spivs that the likes of Rees-Mogg and Farage have been doing all this for.
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fallen_acorns
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Why do you want a referendum, rather than an election? Both would give remain the chance to stop brexit.
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paul514
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The deal that Boris and the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, are now working on clearly indicates that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, leaving only Northern Ireland suspended temporarily in some sort of 'in/out' limbo acceptable to the DUP and Dublin.

Yet this deal, if passed, will wreck the UK economy.

Car manufacturers will leave in droves - only today, Nissan have warned in the strongest terms that the tariffs of 10% to be imposed by the EU on UK-made vehicles will make being in the UK unviable. This is almost a million jobs.

Food supplies and numerous other industries will be disrupted, as their current production models rely on smooth border flows, that will no longer exist cross-channel.

There will be massive extra burdens of bureaucracy on UK exporters, causing many to withdraw from exporting and adding to our balance of payments deficit.

The pound will plunge to new lows, causing inflation on both food and non-food items. The era of things like cheap imported computers, phones and other electronics will have ended.

The UK will not be able to call on large numbers of European workers who sustain the ordinary work of our economy and make the UK viable, doing all the many jobs that British people don't want to do.

It will be terrible.

This is OUR government planning to do this to OUR country.

Absolutely incredible and purely because a small, highly ideological, extremist faction have taken control of the Tory Party and are being served by their supine liar-in-chief with what they want to hear.

It will be a patriotic act for all existing MPs to vote this down.

We shall then see if Boris Johnson and the Tory extremist ERG are actual democrats, or not.
The referendum debate was in June 2016 you are about 3 and a half years late with these comments 😂

Also Japanese car makers are a special case as they have recently entered into a trade deal with the EU hence why Honda is closing down here and moving production to Japan.

I suspect Nissan would do the same or move some oppositions to their plant in spain.

It wouldn’t happen straight away but over the coming years unless a trade deal is worked out with the EU in the case of signing a withdrawal agreement.

If there is no agreement you can expect Nissan to leave here regardless. God knows what pant crapping dream of yours that you came up with 1 million jobs though.
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winterscoming
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(Original post by Andrew97)
No. The point of a second referendum is to overturn the 1st. Otherwise remain would not be on the ballot paper.

Until we leave, a second vote is not legitimate and opens a can of worms. Why would any side accept the result 2nd time round?
The result of the first was predicated on the UK joining EFTA (the option presented by the official Leave campaign led by Michael Gove and Boris Johnson).

That option is not being considered or even discussed despite the fact that Gove/Johnson are now running the country, therefore the result of the first referendum is already invalid because the thing which people voted for isn't being honoured. Any other option which doesn't involve a cast-iron, air-tight guarantee that the UK will join EFTA has no legitimacy. The only way for it to gain any legitimacy is to have another referendum with Remain on the ballot paper.
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winterscoming
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Why do you want a referendum, rather than an election? Both would give remain the chance to stop brexit.
Except it doesn't because it keeps the decision in parliament. By calling a referendum in 2016, Cameron effectively took the decision out of the hands of parliament, except that the result of that referendum ended up being undeliverable, and the promised deal presented by the official Leave campaign didn't ever materialse, and isn't currently on the table.

The result of the 2017 election didn't give any legitimacy to Theresa May's deal either (even if she'd kept her majority, it would not have changed the fact that her deal looked nothing like the deal promised in 2016), the result of any future election also won't give Parliament any legitimacy to choose any of the 3 currently possible outcomes either - again, because none of those options come anywhere even close to matching what people voted for in 2016.

A referendum could even be held on the same day to minimise "fatigue" and maximise turnout, then people just have an extra paper to fiil in on the day.

Another referendum will guarantee a clear and unambiguous answer by doing what David Cameron should have done first time around, which is by providing people with a clear definition of precisely what it means to leave (we already have that now, but we didn't in 2016). It'll be based on the current deal that's on the table rather than Gove/Johnson's promised deal from 2016 which didn't ever materialise. It's pretty much the only way to give any legitimacy to whichever deal Boris Johnson can come up with now.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The deal that Boris and the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, are now working on clearly indicates that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, leaving only Northern Ireland suspended temporarily in some sort of 'in/out' limbo acceptable to the DUP and Dublin.

Yet this deal, if passed, will wreck the UK economy.

Car manufacturers will leave in droves - only today, Nissan have warned in the strongest terms that the tariffs of 10% to be imposed by the EU on UK-made vehicles will make being in the UK unviable. This is almost a million jobs.

Food supplies and numerous other industries will be disrupted, as their current production models rely on smooth border flows, that will no longer exist cross-channel.

There will be massive extra burdens of bureaucracy on UK exporters, causing many to withdraw from exporting and adding to our balance of payments deficit.

The pound will plunge to new lows, causing inflation on both food and non-food items. The era of things like cheap imported computers, phones and other electronics will have ended.

The UK will not be able to call on large numbers of European workers who sustain the ordinary work of our economy and make the UK viable, doing all the many jobs that British people don't want to do.

It will be terrible.

This is OUR government planning to do this to OUR country.

Absolutely incredible and purely because a small, highly ideological, extremist faction have taken control of the Tory Party and are being served by their supine liar-in-chief with what they want to hear.

It will be a patriotic act for all existing MPs to vote this down.

We shall then see if Boris Johnson and the Tory extremist ERG are actual democrats, or not.
I think you may find that only Nigel can save Britain's EU membership now.

The Spartans and the DUP are in full surrender mode. Boris will agree anything to get a deal because he knows No Deal isn't and never was viable and he has to have a deal by 31 October.

Boris wants to put the deal to a vote on 19 October before anyone has had a chance to study it in detail. Farage's problem is that the deal won't be published until the papers have gone to bed on Friday night. Once Parliament sits on Saturday no-one will be interested in what he has to say. He needs a big interview on Saturday morning radio or TV but he may find himself bounced out in favour of Government ministers.

Peace with honour. Peace in our time.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
I think you may find that only Nigel can save Britain's EU membership now.

The Spartans and the DUP are in full surrender mode. Boris will agree anything to get a deal because he knows No Deal isn't and never was viable and he has to have a deal by 31 October.

Boris wants to put the deal to a vote on 19 October before anyone has had a chance to study it in detail. Farage's problem is that the deal won't be published until the papers have gone to bed on Friday night. Once Parliament sits on Saturday no-one will be interested in what he has to say. He needs a big interview on Saturday morning radio or TV but he may find himself bounced out in favour of Government ministers.

Peace with honour. Peace in our time.
Agreed about Saturday, but I'm not clear how you join the dots to Nigel having the control? Other than as the usual serious irritant on the Tory Party's right buttock.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by winterscoming)
The result of the first was predicated on the UK joining EFTA (the option presented by the official Leave campaign led by Michael Gove and Boris Johnson).

That option is not being considered or even discussed despite the fact that Gove/Johnson are now running the country, therefore the result of the first referendum is already invalid because the thing which people voted for isn't being honoured. Any other option which doesn't involve a cast-iron, air-tight guarantee that the UK will join EFTA has no legitimacy. The only way for it to gain any legitimacy is to have another referendum with Remain on the ballot paper.
This is the key point. Leave completely misrepresented their true goals during the campaign. At no time did they explain to the British electorate that it was actually about abandoning significant chunks of our industrial base, nor did they let people know they were planning a zero-welfare state Singapore economy, nor did they explain that it would take a decade of turmoil and massive unemployment to obtain a new working relationship with the EU, nor did they say we would be forced under Tory extremist terms to accept whatever horrible exploitative deals America forces on the UK post-Brexit. Yet all of those things are now utterly clear.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The deal that Boris and the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, are now working on clearly indicates that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, leaving only Northern Ireland suspended temporarily in some sort of 'in/out' limbo acceptable to the DUP and Dublin.

Yet this deal, if passed, will wreck the UK economy.

Car manufacturers will leave in droves - only today, Nissan have warned in the strongest terms that the tariffs of 10% to be imposed by the EU on UK-made vehicles will make being in the UK unviable. This is almost a million jobs.

Food supplies and numerous other industries will be disrupted, as their current production models rely on smooth border flows, that will no longer exist cross-channel.

There will be massive extra burdens of bureaucracy on UK exporters, causing many to withdraw from exporting and adding to our balance of payments deficit.

The pound will plunge to new lows, causing inflation on both food and non-food items. The era of things like cheap imported computers, phones and other electronics will have ended.

The UK will not be able to call on large numbers of European workers who sustain the ordinary work of our economy and make the UK viable, doing all the many jobs that British people don't want to do.

It will be terrible.

This is OUR government planning to do this to OUR country.

Absolutely incredible and purely because a small, highly ideological, extremist faction have taken control of the Tory Party and are being served by their supine liar-in-chief with what they want to hear.

It will be a patriotic act for all existing MPs to vote this down.

We shall then see if Boris Johnson and the Tory extremist ERG are actual democrats, or not.
So let's get this straight, reject all deals remain in a right wing neoliberal union that has failed to provide economic security because you fear change.

Then campaign a referendum with a fallacious remain option, that should be revoke VS a deal ... what deal? Is no deal impossible after this ref?

What do you do is a deal win's? The EU are not forced to give one, you cant walk away.... what to do?

What do you do if revoke wins? The EU starts to flex its muscles, the gloves come off the rebate would more or less certainly be gone, what you going to do ... you cant leave?
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the bear
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well if you let people have referenda you must abide by the result. it is like letting your 5 year old take over the wheel on the motorway.
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