Parliament must reject the latest Boris 'deal' proposal and call for a 2nd referendum Watch

random_matt
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Damn, there are a lot of people who absolutely adore the EU.
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Burton Bridge
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#22
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(Original post by random_matt)
Damn, there are a lot of people who absolutely adore the EU.
Yes brexit and Europe has become like a religion, unfortunately.
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Fullofsurprises
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#23
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#23
(Original post by random_matt)
Damn, there are a lot of people who absolutely adore the EU.
No, they are just rational enough to realise that it isn't in any way bad enough to possibly justify setting fire to our economy, living standards and convenience so that we can say we've left it and sing Vera Lynn songs round Brexit Party camp fires with a load of nasty old kippers.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
No, they are just rational enough to realise that it isn't in any way bad enough to possibly justify setting fire to our economy, living standards and convenience so that we can say we've left it and sing Vera Lynn songs round Brexit Party camp fires with a load of nasty old kippers.
The supposed left's current support of remain really is ironic, you are being played mate
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Fullofsurprises
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#25
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The supposed left's current support of remain really is ironic, you are being played mate
I think you're just a bit behind the times BB. The old days when the EU Commission was simply a tool of giant corporations, whilst not exactly over, are at least somewhat modified these days. The UK government is far more the tool than the EU. That's not to say that the EU is marvellous, it's a question of weighing up the pros and cons. But playing into simplistic jingoistic tripe as in the psychodramas presented to the masses by pap-merchants like Cummings, Farage and Rees-Mogg - well, I hardly think they sound like safe places for the real Left to reside.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Agreed about Saturday, but I'm not clear how you join the dots to Nigel having the control? Other than as the usual serious irritant on the Tory Party's right buttock.
Farage doesn’t have control. He is merely the only person who might say that Boris’s deal has no clothes and put a bit of spine back into the Spartans. If you want to Remain you need Peter Bone and Mark Francois on your side.
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by winterscoming)
Except it doesn't because it keeps the decision in parliament. By calling a referendum in 2016, Cameron effectively took the decision out of the hands of parliament, except that the result of that referendum ended up being undeliverable, and the promised deal presented by the official Leave campaign didn't ever materialse, and isn't currently on the table.

The result of the 2017 election didn't give any legitimacy to Theresa May's deal either (even if she'd kept her majority, it would not have changed the fact that her deal looked nothing like the deal promised in 2016), the result of any future election also won't give Parliament any legitimacy to choose any of the 3 currently possible outcomes either - again, because none of those options come anywhere even close to matching what people voted for in 2016.

A referendum could even be held on the same day to minimise "fatigue" and maximise turnout, then people just have an extra paper to fiil in on the day.

Another referendum will guarantee a clear and unambiguous answer by doing what David Cameron should have done first time around, which is by providing people with a clear definition of precisely what it means to leave (we already have that now, but we didn't in 2016). It'll be based on the current deal that's on the table rather than Gove/Johnson's promised deal from 2016 which didn't ever materialise. It's pretty much the only way to give any legitimacy to whichever deal Boris Johnson can come up with now.
The problem is that another referendum may deliver a clear and unambigiuous answer.. but it will then be enforced by a government that doesn't want to do it!

Think a step ahead. We have a referendum before an election. Remain wins the referendum, but if current polling maintains brexit-parties win the election. Farage and Johnson are in a coalition government with a majority. This is almost guaranteed if the referendum happens before the election, because if remain were to win, the fury and anger of brexit voters would sweep farage+Johnson through the gate of an election.

You then end up with the exact reason why referendums don't fit in our political system: You have a party in charge of implementing a decision that they don't support. Do you think a Tory/Brexit coalition are just going to revoke article 50 and leave it at that? Probably, but that's pretty much what leavers thought after the last referendum, they thought we would be out, deal or no deal.. obviously a goverment would have to respect it and just take us out. They were as deluded as remain voters are currently if they believe that having brexiteers incharge of remaining, will be any simpler than having remainers in charge of leaving.

The brexiteers will squirm and wriggle around trying to find some way out. They will say that the referendum isn't binding.. or maybe agree to remain but on the condition another referendum is held in 5 years.. or maybe agree to remain but only if the EU agrees to re-negotiate our membership (impossible as that would be) etc. Or maybe they would just delay and demand a third referendum, best 2 out of 3 etc.

The point is, if you have a referendum before an election you could well end up in exactly the mess we have been in.. a goverment trying to get out of implimenting a decision it never wanted in the first place.

---

Instead, we can just have a clear brexit-election, where the winning coalition has a majority in the house, a clear mandate from the public, and the will and motivation to carry it out.

The only thing stopping this is that Labour refuse to take a side. If they just come out for remain, we can have a clear election: Remain coalition (SNP, Libs, Green, Plyd, Labour), Leave coalition (UKIP, Con, Brexit) - which ever can form a majority can and will implement their will.
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nulli tertius
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#28
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Yes brexit and Europe has become like a religion, unfortunately.
But like religion all is not necessarily what it seems. You can have woolly minded middle of the road Anglicans like Arlene Foster and austere no compromise Presbyterians like Ruth Davidson. Your religion can be subservient to undemocratic foreign leadership like Jacob Rees-Mogg or Ian Duncan Smith or, like most of the British population you may not follow any religion like Sajid Javid.
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Fullofsurprises
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#29
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#29
(Original post by nulli tertius)
Farage doesn’t have control. He is merely the only person who might say that Boris’s deal has no clothes and put a bit of spine back into the Spartans. If you want to Remain you need Peter Bone and Mark Francois on your side.
Oh yes, of course, I need the ERG to give me the referendum. Nigel of course has already accepted the idea of another referendum, although there's still time for him to change what passes for his mind.

The nice sensible moderate DUPpies must be an issue Saturday, I wonder what they will make of whatever floppy surrender giveaway (anticipating their words, not mine) Boris will have offered the scheming Dublin antichrist?
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The deal that Boris and the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, are now working on clearly indicates that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, leaving only Northern Ireland suspended temporarily in some sort of 'in/out' limbo acceptable to the DUP and Dublin.

Yet this deal, if passed, will wreck the UK economy.

Car manufacturers will leave in droves - only today, Nissan have warned in the strongest terms that the tariffs of 10% to be imposed by the EU on UK-made vehicles will make being in the UK unviable. This is almost a million jobs.

Food supplies and numerous other industries will be disrupted, as their current production models rely on smooth border flows, that will no longer exist cross-channel.

There will be massive extra burdens of bureaucracy on UK exporters, causing many to withdraw from exporting and adding to our balance of payments deficit.

The pound will plunge to new lows, causing inflation on both food and non-food items. The era of things like cheap imported computers, phones and other electronics will have ended.

The UK will not be able to call on large numbers of European workers who sustain the ordinary work of our economy and make the UK viable, doing all the many jobs that British people don't want to do.

It will be terrible.

This is OUR government planning to do this to OUR country.

Absolutely incredible and purely because a small, highly ideological, extremist faction have taken control of the Tory Party and are being served by their supine liar-in-chief with what they want to hear.

It will be a patriotic act for all existing MPs to vote this down.

We shall then see if Boris Johnson and the Tory extremist ERG are actual democrats, or not.
Agree 100%
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Fullofsurprises
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#31
(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
Agree 100%
BIV, nearly always right. :teehee: :hat2:
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nulli tertius
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#32
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Oh yes, of course, I need the ERG to give me the referendum. Nigel of course has already accepted the idea of another referendum, although there's still time for him to change what passes for his mind.

The nice sensible moderate DUPpies must be an issue Saturday, I wonder what they will make of whatever floppy surrender giveaway (anticipating their words, not mine) Boris will have offered the scheming Dublin antichrist?
I think at present the DUP will agree anything.

If the solution to the Irish border is to annex NI to the Vatican City, the DUP might insist that Ian Paisley Jnr is made a Cardinal but that is the limit of their resistance.

U
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Fullofsurprises
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#33
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#33
(Original post by nulli tertius)
I think at present the DUP will agree anything.

If the solution to the Irish border is to annex NI to the Vatican City, the DUP might insist that Ian Paisley Jnr is made a Cardinal but that is the limit of their resistance.

U
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
This is the key point. Leave completely misrepresented their true goals during the campaign. At no time did they explain to the British electorate that it was actually about abandoning significant chunks of our industrial base, nor did they let people know they were planning a zero-welfare state Singapore economy, nor did they explain that it would take a decade of turmoil and massive unemployment to obtain a new working relationship with the EU, nor did they say we would be forced under Tory extremist terms to accept whatever horrible exploitative deals America forces on the UK post-Brexit. Yet all of those things are now utterly clear.
Yawn, aren't you bored of repeating this tired old diatribe, what you are really trying to insinuate is that the people were too stupid to know what they were voting for and should be, in the usual EU way, given a chance to reconsider their stupidity.
I know quite a few remainers now and not a single one of them wishes for us to go back on the result of the referendum, it's just the few vocal EU happy clappers that claim this.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Yawn, aren't you bored of repeating this tired old diatribe, what you are really trying to insinuate is that the people were too stupid to know what they were voting for and should be, in the usual EU way, given a chance to reconsider their stupidity.
I know quite a few remainers now and not a single one of them wishes for us to go back on the result of the referendum, it's just the few vocal EU happy clappers that claim this.
There are your mates. And then there's the electorate.

Latest polls show:

More than 2-1, voters want a second referendum.

Far more Leave voters would now vote remain. The likely result would be 53:47 to Remain.

There are 2m older Leave voters who have died since the last time and over 800,000 young voters who are heavily pro-Remain.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9149491.html
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ByEeek
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Everyone seems to have forgotten that any "deal" agreed is only a short term affair to tie us over until something more permanent can be agreed. Or am I wrong and this deal will be our long term deal forever?
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Fullofsurprises
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#37
(Original post by ByEeek)
Everyone seems to have forgotten that any "deal" agreed is only a short term affair to tie us over until something more permanent can be agreed. Or am I wrong and this deal will be our long term deal forever?
You're not wrong in theory, but an interim deal between the UK and the EU that specifically stipulates that we are leaving both the Single Market and the Customs Union sounds pretty final and doesn't leave much to negotiate, other than (they hope) an FTA with the EU, which might or might not mitigate those disastrous errors in some fashion.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
You're not wrong in theory, but an interim deal between the UK and the EU that specifically stipulates that we are leaving both the Single Market and the Customs Union sounds pretty final and doesn't leave much to negotiate, other than (they hope) an FTA with the EU, which might or might not mitigate those disastrous errors in some fashion.
Agreed. But to be fair being in the customs union was never on the table for true leavers. And to be fair it is a poor second best for remainers. It is being in the EU whole heartedly without any of the advantages of being out, or thecadvantages of being in and therefore pleases no one.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. But to be fair being in the customs union was never on the table for true leavers. And to be fair it is a poor second best for remainers. It is being in the EU whole heartedly without any of the advantages of being out, or thecadvantages of being in and therefore pleases no one.
Nothing is as good for trade as being in the EU Single Market. That's true globally, which is why everyone who is anyone is desperate to sign a deep trade deal with the EU. The UK is the only country in the world currently trying to distance itself from EU trade and make it actively harder to trade with the EU. Some might call that 'bananas'.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
There are your mates. And then there's the electorate.

Latest polls show:

More than 2-1, voters want a second referendum.

Far more Leave voters would now vote remain. The likely result would be 53:47 to Remain.

There are 2m older Leave voters who have died since the last time and over 800,000 young voters who are heavily pro-Remain.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9149491.html
Ah yes the independent, it's always been anything but.
Please forgive me if I choose to draw upon what I have heard from friends that voted to remain than that piece of **** rag
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