Parliament must reject the latest Boris 'deal' proposal and call for a 2nd referendum Watch

Fullofsurprises
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#41
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#41
(Original post by ColinDent)
Ah yes the independent, it's always been anything but.
Please forgive me if I choose to draw upon what I have heard from friends that voted to remain than that piece of **** rag
The polls quoted are from multiple pollsters and nothing to do with the Indie. Apart from being completely wrong, your point was well argued.
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ByEeek
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#42
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#42
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Nothing is as good for trade as being in the EU Single Market. That's true globally, which is why everyone who is anyone is desperate to sign a deep trade deal with the EU. The UK is the only country in the world currently trying to distance itself from EU trade and make it actively harder to trade with the EU. Some might call that 'bananas'.
Agreed! As long as it isn't EU sanctioned straight bananas lol!
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ByEeek
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#43
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Yawn, aren't you bored of repeating this tired old diatribe, what you are really trying to insinuate is that the people were too stupid to know what they were voting
I think it fair to say that this is exactly the case. Not only were the people fed false and misleading information from all sides, but the EUs influence both positive and negative is so intertwined with our own society that it is more or less impossible to unpick the full picture.

For example, I only learned yesterday about UK fish. Take back control of our fishing grounds I hear you shout? Except that we import most of the fish we eat (cod and haddock) and export most of the fish we catch to where? That's right. Europe. Except that post Brexit that fish will incur 20% import duty and additional red tape to satisfy EU authenticity regulations. Now are you really telling me that red blooded Brexit voters baying to take back control were aware of this slight oversight? And this is just one tiny aspect of a very complex relationship with a union that touches every aspect of our lives.
Last edited by ByEeek; 1 month ago
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ColinDent
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#44
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The polls quoted are from multiple pollsters and nothing to do with the Indie. Apart from being completely wrong, your point was well argued.
No, the independent is definitely anything but, may I be so bold as to question how many people they polled in this factual slice of the UK's thoughts?
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ColinDent
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#45
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I think it fair to say that this is exactly the case. Not only were the people fed false and misleading information from all sides, but the EUs influence both positive and negative is so intertwined with our own society that it is more or less impossible to unpick the full picture.

For example, I only learned yesterday about UK fish. Take back control of our fishing grounds I hear you shout? Except that we import most of the fish we eat (cod and haddock) and export most of the fish we catch to where? That's right. Europe. Except that post Brexit that fish will incur 20% import duty and additional red tape to satisfy EU authenticity regulations. Now are you really telling me that red blooded Brexit voters baying to take back control were aware of this slight oversight? And this is just one tiny aspect of a very complex relationship with a union that touches every aspect of our lives.
Honestly, that's the best you can come up with? Why do we need to import so much cod and haddock, it couldn't possibly be because most of our fishing waters have been taken from us surely?
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Napp
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#46
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Honestly, that's the best you can come up with? Why do we need to import so much cod and haddock, it couldn't possibly be because most of our fishing waters have been taken from us surely?
Are you being intentionally dishonest there or?
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Napp
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#47
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#47
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Yes brexit and Europe has become like a religion, unfortunately.
There was a rather good article in the NS last week about this actually :lol:
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3121
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#48
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#48
You have to realise the fall in the pound back in 2016 and subsequent devaluations has meant there’s been instant tariffs of 20%-25% on EVERYTHING imported. While the EU is getting 20%-25% off everything if sold in GBP… it’s an important issue you can't miss and a factor that still hasn’t fully hit the economy yet.
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ColinDent
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#49
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#49
(Original post by Napp)
Are you being intentionally dishonest there or?
Are you suggesting this didn't happen! Okay they were signed over but in another dishonest way.
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winterscoming
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
The problem is that another referendum may deliver a clear and unambigiuous answer.. but it will then be enforced by a government that doesn't want to do it!

Think a step ahead. We have a referendum before an election. Remain wins the referendum, but if current polling maintains brexit-parties win the election. Farage and Johnson are in a coalition government with a majority. This is almost guaranteed if the referendum happens before the election, because if remain were to win, the fury and anger of brexit voters would sweep farage+Johnson through the gate of an election.

You then end up with the exact reason why referendums don't fit in our political system: You have a party in charge of implementing a decision that they don't support. Do you think a Tory/Brexit coalition are just going to revoke article 50 and leave it at that? Probably, but that's pretty much what leavers thought after the last referendum, they thought we would be out, deal or no deal.. obviously a goverment would have to respect it and just take us out. They were as deluded as remain voters are currently if they believe that having brexiteers incharge of remaining, will be any simpler than having remainers in charge of leaving.

The brexiteers will squirm and wriggle around trying to find some way out. They will say that the referendum isn't binding.. or maybe agree to remain but on the condition another referendum is held in 5 years.. or maybe agree to remain but only if the EU agrees to re-negotiate our membership (impossible as that would be) etc. Or maybe they would just delay and demand a third referendum, best 2 out of 3 etc.

The point is, if you have a referendum before an election you could well end up in exactly the mess we have been in.. a goverment trying to get out of implimenting a decision it never wanted in the first place.
If the referendum result becomes legally binding (Parliament can ensure that happens), then it won't matter what any eventual government may want because it will have been enshrined in law, so there'd be nothing for the government or parliament to contemplate over, and no need to spend any more parliamentary time on it. It doesn't matter what the government wants or doesn't want because the decision will not be theirs to take; they will simply be the executors of the instruction whether they like it or not (I would imagine there would be a fairly clear-cut legal case in the supreme court for any government which decided not to comply).

I think the real problem with the first referendum was that the Leave outcome simply had no proposals behind it whatsoever with respect to what leaving really meant, aside from a fairly weakly-defined plan about the UK joining EFTA proposed by the official leave campaign.

The big difference would be a stamped, sealed, legally-binding document (which already exists - mostly, Theresa May's deal, plus whatever amendments that Boris can negotiate). This along with making it legally-binding pretty much removes any further scope for political deadlock because I would think that no government would be able to overturn it (Obviously I don't know for sure, since I'm not a legal expert, but I cannot imagine the UK Supreme court allowing a government to ignore a legally-binding referendum result).

The problem is really nothing to do with what the government or parliament wants, or even the fact that people voted leave, it's the fact that that the Leave outcome was so poorly defined that the Tory Government has used it as an excuse to reinterpret it in any way it pleases and has been trying to tell people that whatever they decide is "what people voted for" -- this (IMHO) is totally unacceptable and a totally undemocratic abuse of power by the executive.

(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Instead, we can just have a clear brexit-election, where the winning coalition has a majority in the house, a clear mandate from the public, and the will and motivation to carry it out.
The only thing stopping this is that Labour refuse to take a side. If they just come out for remain, we can have a clear election: Remain coalition (SNP, Libs, Green, Plyd, Labour), Leave coalition (UKIP, Con, Brexit) - which ever can form a majority can and will implement their will.
No it doesn't provide a clear mandate at all. A general election only decides who our representatives are in parliament, but David Cameron took the decision away from parliament and put it to a direct vote instead.

The entire premise of leaving is predicated on the fact that a statistical majority of people in the country voted in favour of leaving, albeit without defining what leaving means. The only democratic way to be able to know whether a statistical majority of people still support the concept of leaving (now that leaving is clearly defined), is to have another ballot with essentially the same question again, but where both possible outcomes are clearly-defined, unambiguous, legally-binding, and where there's no room for any government or parliament to do anything other than just adhere to the result then move on and put the entire issue to rest.

A general election doesn't do this at all - firstly because an election isn't about a single issue (it's about a great many number of issues - many of which are far more important to most people in the country than the 'Brexit' issue which people are feeling increasingly bored and fed up with). Also because the way our FPTP system works is such that a majority government can be formed with only a minority of the votes - e.g. a government can be voted into power even when that party won less than 40% of the popular vote, which obviously falls a long way short of the statistical majority that would be needed in a referendum.

Then of course there's also the (highly likely) chance that a general election will do about as much to parliamentary arithmetic as rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic. Holding a legally-binding referendum is pretty much the only way to guarantee a definite answer either way, and to sort it out once and for all.
Last edited by winterscoming; 1 month ago
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Rakas21
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#51
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#51
(Original post by ByEeek)
I think it fair to say that this is exactly the case. Not only were the people fed false and misleading information from all sides, but the EUs influence both positive and negative is so intertwined with our own society that it is more or less impossible to unpick the full picture.

For example, I only learned yesterday about UK fish. Take back control of our fishing grounds I hear you shout? Except that we import most of the fish we eat (cod and haddock) and export most of the fish we catch to where? That's right. Europe. Except that post Brexit that fish will incur 20% import duty and additional red tape to satisfy EU authenticity regulations. Now are you really telling me that red blooded Brexit voters baying to take back control were aware of this slight oversight? And this is just one tiny aspect of a very complex relationship with a union that touches every aspect of our lives.
On the fishing point only 40% of fish caught in UK waters is brought to British ports thanks to the CFP. With more fish brought to port, prices will fall and more fish will be consumed. While No Deal could impact fishing exports, with more of that 60% offish not brought to British ports able to be exported by us, we may negate some of the loss.


Not t9 mention, we may still get a deal.
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ColinDent
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#52
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#52
(Original post by Rakas21)
On the fishing point only 40% of fish caught in UK waters is brought to British ports thanks to the CFP. With more fish brought to port, prices will fall and more fish will be consumed. While No Deal could impact fishing exports, with more of that 60% offish not brought to British ports able to be exported by us, we may negate some of the loss.


Not t9 mention, we may still get a deal.
Kind of what I was inferring but was " shot down" by another remain supporting poster.
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im white
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#53
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The deal that Boris and the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, are now working on clearly indicates that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, leaving only Northern Ireland suspended temporarily in some sort of 'in/out' limbo acceptable to the DUP and Dublin.

Yet this deal, if passed, will wreck the UK economy.

Car manufacturers will leave in droves - only today, Nissan have warned in the strongest terms that the tariffs of 10% to be imposed by the EU on UK-made vehicles will make being in the UK unviable. This is almost a million jobs.

Food supplies and numerous other industries will be disrupted, as their current production models rely on smooth border flows, that will no longer exist cross-channel.

There will be massive extra burdens of bureaucracy on UK exporters, causing many to withdraw from exporting and adding to our balance of payments deficit.

The pound will plunge to new lows, causing inflation on both food and non-food items. The era of things like cheap imported computers, phones and other electronics will have ended.

The UK will not be able to call on large numbers of European workers who sustain the ordinary work of our economy and make the UK viable, doing all the many jobs that British people don't want to do.

It will be terrible.

This is OUR government planning to do this to OUR country.

Absolutely incredible and purely because a small, highly ideological, extremist faction have taken control of the Tory Party and are being served by their supine liar-in-chief with what they want to hear.

It will be a patriotic act for all existing MPs to vote this down.

We shall then see if Boris Johnson and the Tory extremist ERG are actual democrats, or not.
I voted out, there will be riots if we don't get out, I support brexit
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Rock Fan
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#54
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#54
Sooner we are out the better
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Napp
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#55
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#55
(Original post by ColinDent)
Are you suggesting this didn't happen! Okay they were signed over but in another dishonest way.
That is exactly what i am suggesting and you yourself just said...
How exactly was it err dishonest?
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Burton Bridge
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#56
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#56
(Original post by ByEeek)
Everyone seems to have forgotten that any "deal" agreed is only a short term affair to tie us over until something more permanent can be agreed. Or am I wrong and this deal will be our long term deal forever?
No you are not wrong. The point very I've made over and over, this is the start of the process and remainers parliamentarians are blocking the start of the process, the FTA has not even been spoken about yet.

We were in a situation both major parties say they wanted the same thing. Only in practice for the remainer parliamentarians (mainly from labour) voted against what they had previously promised the public they would support in order to get elected.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 month ago
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Burton Bridge
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#57
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#57
(Original post by Napp)
There was a rather good article in the NS last week about this actually :lol:
Was they? You got a link mate?
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Burton Bridge
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#58
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#58
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
There are your mates. And then there's the electorate.

Latest polls show:

More than 2-1, voters want a second referendum.

Far more Leave voters would now vote remain. The likely result would be 53:47 to Remain.

There are 2m older Leave voters who have died since the last time and over 800,000 young voters who are heavily pro-Remain.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a9149491.html
I find it funny how fanatical people quote polls that fit their own beliefs as fact, farage does the same thing on his LBC show to show the reverse of what you said.

I believe a referendum is a safe bet for leave, I think remainers know this that's why they wish to put zombie remain deal vs remain or split the leave vote vs united remain vote as the question.
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Burton Bridge
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#59
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I think it fair to say that this is exactly the case. Not only were the people fed false and misleading information from all sides, but the EUs influence both positive and negative is so intertwined with our own society that it is more or less impossible to unpick the full picture.

For example, I only learned yesterday about UK fish. Take back control of our fishing grounds I hear you shout? Except that we import most of the fish we eat (cod and haddock) and export most of the fish we catch to where? That's right. Europe. Except that post Brexit that fish will incur 20% import duty and additional red tape to satisfy EU authenticity regulations. Now are you really telling me that red blooded Brexit voters baying to take back control were aware of this slight oversight? And this is just one tiny aspect of a very complex relationship with a union that touches every aspect of our lives.
Did you find out yesterday that some of the fish "import" back are caught by European trawlers in OUR waters?
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Burton Bridge
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#60
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#60
(Original post by im white)
I voted out, there will be riots if we don't get out, I support brexit
I think there will be roits if we dont also, as I said brexit is becoming almost religious.

(Original post by Rakas21)
On the fishing point only 40% of fish caught in UK waters is brought to British ports thanks to the CFP. With more fish brought to port, prices will fall and more fish will be consumed. While No Deal could impact fishing exports, with more of that 60% offish not brought to British ports able to be exported by us, we may negate some of the loss.


Not t9 mention, we may still get a deal.
You beat me too it
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