Home office successful in NI citizenship appeal

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Stiff Little Fingers
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https://www.thejournal.ie/emma-desou...50391-Oct2019/

The home office has won a immigration tribunal appeal after an Irish woman from Co. Derry was ruled to be British, not Irish and thus unable to apply for residence for her husband as an Irish citizen, in a breach of the Good Friday Agreement.

Perfidious Albion strikes again...
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
https://www.thejournal.ie/emma-desou...50391-Oct2019/

The home office has won a immigration tribunal appeal after an Irish woman from Co. Derry was ruled to be British, not Irish and thus unable to apply for residence for her husband as an Irish citizen, in a breach of the Good Friday Agreement.

Perfidious Albion strikes again...
What effectively the Court has ruled is that she can't be Schrodinger's colleen. If she wishes to identify as Irish whilst she is within the UK, she has to give up being British. She can't say that she is Irish for the purpose of the immigration status of her husband, but reserve the right to be British when she feels like it.

The Good Friday Agreement said that anyone in Northern Ireland had the right to identify as either British or Irish. It didn't say that someone could choose to one or he other for different purposes depending on what suited at the time. This woman is free to give up her British citizenship at any time but has chosen not to do so.
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gjd800
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I understand her indignation at being classed as automatically 'British', but it'd have been more expedient (and cheaper!) for her just to renounce and then campaign for a change in the law after that
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
What effectively the Court has ruled is that she can't be Schrodinger's colleen. If she wishes to identify as Irish whilst she is within the UK, she has to give up being British. She can't say that she is Irish for the purpose of the immigration status of her husband, but reserve the right to be British when she feels like it.

The Good Friday Agreement said that anyone in Northern Ireland had the right to identify as either British or Irish. It didn't say that someone could choose to one or he other for different purposes depending on what suited at the time. This woman is free to give up her British citizenship at any time but has chosen not to do so.
The Good Friday Agreement sets out that all those in the 6 occupied counties are entitled to both citizenship of Britain and Ireland - the home office's position is that to be an Irish citizen she has to renounce British citizenship, which is a contravention of that.
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nulli tertius
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No; she has the right to be both British and Irish.

If she is arrested in Donegal, she cannot obtain consular protection from the British Consul, because she is an Irish citizen. When she is living in Londonderry, she is living in the United Kingdom by virtue of her British and not her Irish citizenship. It is perfectly straightforward.

This provision of the Good Friday Agreement was to deal with the fact that the Republic gave citizenship to the Northern Irish but took steps to exclude them from being able to exercise it.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by gjd800)
I understand her indignation at being classed as automatically 'British', but it'd have been more expedient (and cheaper!) for her just to renounce and then campaign for a change in the law after that
By renouncing she has to make the declaration that she was, at one point, a British citizen, which in itself is not compliant with the GFA. In effect, the home office have taken the position that it is not bound by international agreements, that all those in the 6 counties are de facto British even if they consider themselves solely Irish - rather than making citizenship an entitlement, as it is for the republic, they've set it as a fact that the individual can later revoke.
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QE2
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
What effectively the Court has ruled is that she can't be Schrodinger's colleen. If she wishes to identify as Irish whilst she is within the UK, she has to give up being British. She can't say that she is Irish for the purpose of the immigration status of her husband, but reserve the right to be British when she feels like it.

The Good Friday Agreement said that anyone in Northern Ireland had the right to identify as either British or Irish. It didn't say that someone could choose to one or he other for different purposes depending on what suited at the time. This woman is free to give up her British citizenship at any time but has chosen not to do so.
She claims to have never identified as British.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by QE2)
She claims to have never identified as British.
Then why hasn't she given up the citizenship that seemingly she hasn't wanted to have like all those Australian politicians who suddenly found out that they were unwantedly British?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
By renouncing she has to make the declaration that she was, at one point, a British citizen, which in itself is not compliant with the GFA. In effect, the home office have taken the position that it is not bound by international agreements, that all those in the 6 counties are de facto British even if they consider themselves solely Irish - rather than making citizenship an entitlement, as it is for the republic, they've set it as a fact that the individual can later revoke.
How can she not be British? British citizenship is now inherited through both parents but previously was inherited through the male line only. However before 1948 birth in the UK or a British Dominion automatically gave British citizenship.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
The Good Friday Agreement sets out that all those in the 6 occupied counties are entitled to both citizenship of Britain and Ireland - the home office's position is that to be an Irish citizen she has to renounce British citizenship, which is a contravention of that.
No it isn't. She has the right to British citizenship if she wants it, as required by the GFA. If she doesn't want it she can renounce it, just like the rest of us, and re-apply.

It is not exactly unreasonable for a country to expect its citizens to behave as a citizen when they are within its borders, and it is unreasonable for a citizen to expect to be treated as a foreigner when in that country.
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gjd800
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
By renouncing she has to make the declaration that she was, at one point, a British citizen, which in itself is not compliant with the GFA. In effect, the home office have taken the position that it is not bound by international agreements, that all those in the 6 counties are de facto British even if they consider themselves solely Irish - rather than making citizenship an entitlement, as it is for the republic, they've set it as a fact that the individual can later revoke.
I understand her argument and I am sympathetic to it. I am after all a republican. But I don't think it does conflict with the GFA: the choice has not been removed from her, it has just been made slightly more inconvenient. We all 'get' a nationality that we might not later want. The law could do with some tidying up (and indeed Theresa May said as much in her tenure) if we want to avoid this sort of thing, but I don't think it is in itself the big disgrace that it is being made out to be
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Good bloke)
No it isn't. She has the right to British citizenship if she wants it, as required by the GFA. If she doesn't want it she can renounce it, just like the rest of us, and re-apply.
She has the right to it, not for it to be forced on to her. If you renounce something, you acknowledge that at one point you did have it - for Irish people in the 6 counties the notion that they are or were British whether they like it or not is controversial to say the least

(Original post by nulli tertius)
How can she not be British? British citizenship is now inherited through both parents but previously was inherited through the male line only. However before 1948 birth in the UK or a British Dominion automatically gave British citizenship.
Because she's Irish?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
She has the right to it, not for it to be forced on to her. If you renounce something, you acknowledge that at one point you did have it - for Irish people in the 6 counties the notion that they are or were British whether they like it or not is controversial to say the least
But the whole history of modern Ireland is predicated on the fact that the whole country was British. How can you have a War of Independence otherwise?

Because she's Irish?

Neither the UK nor Ireland has any issue with dual citizenship.

Varadkar can't be Irish and Indian because India doesn't allow dual citizenship. Saying he is Irish means he isn't Indian.

Saying that this woman is Irish doesn't mean that she isn't also British. She may not identify as British but that doesn't mean she isn't/
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L i b
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
The Good Friday Agreement sets out that all those in the 6 occupied counties are entitled to both citizenship of Britain and Ireland - the home office's position is that to be an Irish citizen she has to renounce British citizenship, which is a contravention of that.
The GFA allows people born in Northern Ireland "to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments".

Now, this person has the right to hold both citizenships. The nub of the issue is her being automatically considered a British citizen. Which is not excluded by the GFA - indeed, you would expect anyone born lawfully in the United Kingdom to be automatically a British citizen. That British citizenship will obviously affect her legal status in the UK, just as her Irish citizenship will affect her legal status when she is in the Republic of Ireland.

Oh, and the "occupied six counties" stuff makes you look like a lunatic. I'd drop that nonsense if you want to be taken seriously by anyone in life other than a bunch of balaclava-clad oddballs. If you're going to plead the Good Friday Agreement in aid of an argument, you should probably acknowledge that it recognises British sovereignty over Northern Ireland and the right of Northern Ireland's people to determine their own future.
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L i b
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(Original post by QE2)
She claims to have never identified as British.
Being a British citizen is a matter of fact: you either are, or you are not. Whether you "identify" as something is entirely immaterial. You may have quite a separate sense of identity to your citizenship: one is an objective, legal status - the other is just feelings and fairydust.
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(Original post by L i b)
Being a British citizen is a matter of fact: you either are, or you are not. Whether you "identify" as something is entirely immaterial. You may have quite a separate sense of identity to your citizenship: one is an objective, legal status - the other is just feelings and fairydust.
Quite! There is a definite fad for self-identifying as something you patently are not, or for not identifying as something you obviously are. Reality has been abolished by a social media frenzy.
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