This discussion is closed.
Andrew97
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#1
M561 – Motion on Catalonia 2019, Saracen's Fez MP
This House:

1) Affirms the right of self-determination for all nations, including the right of a people with a shared culture, history and territory to declare themselves a nation, and the right of a nation to constitute itself as a self-governing nation-state.

2) Believes that holding a referendum by peaceful means should never be considered a crime, and that the Spanish state's decision to criminalise and imprison nine Catalan politicians for holding a referendum is incompatible with the values of the European Union and the liberal West.

3) Condemns the Spanish state's disproportionate and violent response against citizens protesting the decision of the court in a peaceful manner.

4) Demands that the Spanish state either recognise the result of the 2017 Catalan independence referendum, and make arrangements for the Catalan nation to secede from the Spanish state, or hold a fresh, binding independence referendum at a time of the Catalan government's choosing.
0
SoggyCabbages
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#2
Report 4 weeks ago
#2
The referendum was illegal, the proposers did something illegal by running it - what exactly is the problem here?

The author has some Welsh nationalist skew to their views and is unable to see that laws were broken.
0
barnetlad
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3
Report 4 weeks ago
#3
Aye. My view is that there should be a fresh referendum agreed to by the Spanish government.
0
Connor27
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4
Report 4 weeks ago
#4
> Foreign Secretary says he won’t get involved in the affairs of other countries.

> Foreign Secretary lodges a motion suggesting we get involved in the affairs of other countries.

I do agree with the motion but the hypocrisy here is astounding.
0
Saracen's Fez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#5
Report 4 weeks ago
#5
(Original post by Connor27)
> Foreign Secretary says he won’t get involved in the affairs of other countries.

> Foreign Secretary lodges a motion suggesting we get involved in the affairs of other countries.

I do agree with the motion but the hypocrisy here is astounding.
It's a private motion for that exact reason...
0
04MR17
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#6
Report 4 weeks ago
#6
1) Yes, to an extent
2) Yes to the first half, no to the wording of the second
3) Completely yes
4) First half no, second half yes
0
Saracen's Fez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#7
Report 4 weeks ago
#7
(Original post by SoggyCabbages)
The referendum was illegal, the proposers did something illegal by running it - what exactly is the problem here?

The author has some Welsh nationalist skew to their views and is unable to see that laws were broken.
Maybe you're missing the point? The main issue is that it's unacceptable for such a thing to be illegal in the first place.
0
SoggyCabbages
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#8
Report 4 weeks ago
#8
(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
Maybe you're missing the point? The main issue is that it's unacceptable for such a thing to be illegal in the first place.
Well the referendum wouldn't have been illegal if they just followed the law in getting one!
0
CatusStarbright
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#9
Report 4 weeks ago
#9
I have the same response here as I do with China-HK. We can disagree with what has happened, but there is no way we can demand that the Spanish state recognise the result of the 2017 referendum or hold another. In addition, while I may not agree with the extensive prison sentences, a state is absolutely going to want to ensure its authority cannot be usurped by those holding an illegal referendum and this should be recognised as a legitimate aim of not allowing illegal referendums.

What the Spanish government should have done was enter into a proper dialogue with the separatists and reached appropriate compromise.
0
SoggyCabbages
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#10
Report 4 weeks ago
#10
(Original post by CatusStarbright)
a state is absolutely going to want to ensure its authority cannot be usurped by those holding an illegal referendum and this should be recognised as a legitimate aim of not allowing illegal referendums.
You can't expect Fez to understand this sensible point he's got a crazy Welsh Nationalist skew and wants to break up our beautiful United Kingdom.
0
Baron of Sealand
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#11
Report 4 weeks ago
#11
(Original post by Connor27)
> Foreign Secretary says he won’t get involved in the affairs of other countries.

> Foreign Secretary lodges a motion suggesting we get involved in the affairs of other countries.

I do agree with the motion but the hypocrisy here is astounding.
Actually, he pledged to uphold liberalism and democracy overseas, only to then refuse to comment on most things, and suddenly now this.

It's clear that his concerns for human rights and democracy only appear when it's a country he personally cares about.
0
Baron of Sealand
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#12
Report 4 weeks ago
#12
What does the Foreign Secretary think about a certain Foreign Secretary's comment here?

"Look, they are bad. I don't know if the Shadow Secretary of State has had a very sheltered upbringing, but bad things happen in the world quite a lot. Most of these bad things are not things that we can do anything about, and I'm not going to come out and make a statement on all the bad things that happen on Planet Earth."
0
Saracen's Fez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#13
Report 4 weeks ago
#13
(Original post by SoggyCabbages)
Well the referendum wouldn't have been illegal if they just followed the law in getting one!
AFAIK there is no 'legal' way to get one under the Spanish Constitution, hence the inclusion of point (1).

(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
Actually, he pledged to uphold liberalism and democracy overseas, only to then refuse to comment on most things, and suddenly now this.

It's clear that his concerns for human rights and democracy only appear when it's a country he personally cares about.
What I do as a minister and what I do as a private member (without government approval) are, for MHoC purposes, two separate things. That's why the House is currently debating a motion, rather than the British Army having been sent to liberate Catalonia.
0
Saracen's Fez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#14
Report 4 weeks ago
#14
(Original post by CatusStarbright)
In addition, while I may not agree with the extensive prison sentences, a state is absolutely going to want to ensure its authority cannot be usurped by those holding an illegal referendum and this should be recognised as a legitimate aim of not allowing illegal referendums.
A sensible way to deal with an 'illegal' referendum is to deal it null and void, not lock parliamentarians up as political prisoners and then send paramilitary police out to beat up anyone who protests that verdict.
0
04MR17
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#15
Report 4 weeks ago
#15
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
What does the Foreign Secretary think about a certain Foreign Secretary's comment here?

"Look, they are bad. I don't know if the Shadow Secretary of State has had a very sheltered upbringing, but bad things happen in the world quite a lot. Most of these bad things are not things that we can do anything about, and I'm not going to come out and make a statement on all the bad things that happen on Planet Earth."
Seems legit.

"Most of these bad things are not things we can do anything about" - doesn't mean all of them.

"I'm not going to make a statement on all the bad things that happen on Earth" - he hasn't.


I don't really see the problem?
0
Baron of Sealand
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#16
Report 4 weeks ago
#16
(Original post by 04MR17)
Seems legit.

"Most of these bad things are not things we can do anything about" - doesn't mean all of them.

"I'm not going to make a statement on all the bad things that happen on Earth" - he hasn't.


I don't really see the problem?
We also can't do anything about Catalonia, not any more than we can do for Sudan, Iraq, Ecuador, Hong Kong, Kurdistan, Palestine, Iran, Indonesia and so forth.

This, like I said, proves that he only cares about certain countries, and that his personal feelings decide whether he would even comment on an international issue. The world in your Foreign Secretary's eyes seems to be very small, and only has 1 continent.

This is without mentioning the fact that from commenting to making a formal statement, to submitting a motion these are 3 different levels of response. At least when you were prime minister, you were willing to respond to things informally.

And you weren't even the one who pledged to uphold liberalism and democracy overseas as Foreign Secretary.
0
Baron of Sealand
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#17
Report 4 weeks ago
#17
(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
What I do as a minister and what I do as a private member (without government approval) are, for MHoC purposes, two separate things. That's why the House is currently debating a motion, rather than the British Army having been sent to liberate Catalonia.
I'm pretty sure the British forces are not under the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. You could never have authorized a military strike anywhere.

There's no actual difference between what you do as a minister and what you do as a private member, which you would know if you had looked beyond Europe to look at what happened to the NBA. You could also never have submitted a motion as the "Foreign Secretary". Commenting in a thread would be as private as you submitting a motion to the House.

The truth of the matter is that despite your initial pledge to uphold liberalism and democracy, this is literally the first time ever you're trying to do it, and ironically doing it during the literal days of the finalization of a new Brexit agreement.
0
Aph
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#18
Report 4 weeks ago
#18
(Original post by CatusStarbright)
I have the same response here as I do with China-HK. We can disagree with what has happened, but there is no way we can demand that the Spanish state recognise the result of the 2017 referendum or hold another. In addition, while I may not agree with the extensive prison sentences, a state is absolutely going to want to ensure its authority cannot be usurped by those holding an illegal referendum and this should be recognised as a legitimate aim of not allowing illegal referendums.

What the Spanish government should have done was enter into a proper dialogue with the separatists and reached appropriate compromise.
Exactly this. We can have a view but we aren’t policemen of the world.
0
04MR17
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#19
Report 4 weeks ago
#19
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
We also can't do anything about Catalonia, not any more than we can do for Sudan, Iraq, Ecuador, Hong Kong, Kurdistan, Palestine, Iran, Indonesia and so forth.
And this is why we're debating a motion on it. If you feel action is needed for your list of examples then submit motions on them.

(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
This, like I said, proves that he only cares about certain countries, and that his personal feelings decide whether he would even comment on an international issue. The world in your Foreign Secretary's eyes seems to be very small, and only has 1 continent.
Erm, no it doesn't. It isn't feasible to expect minute-by-minute comment on every world event.

(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
This is without mentioning the fact that from commenting to making a formal statement, to submitting a motion these are 3 different levels of response. At least when you were prime minister, you were willing to respond to things informally.
You say different levels as though that's a bad thing? I wouldn't say it is. I humoured you when there were simple responses to give, and didn't when there weren't: nothing more than that.
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
And you weren't even the one who pledged to uphold liberalism and democracy overseas as Foreign Secretary.
Upholding values does not mean interventionism. Maybe in the Cold War that was true but it isn't now.
0
Saracen's Fez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#20
Report 4 weeks ago
#20
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
The truth of the matter is that despite your initial pledge to uphold liberalism and democracy, this is literally the first time ever you're trying to do it, and ironically doing it during the literal days of the finalization of a new Brexit agreement.
I'm pretty sure, just because now might be a time to actually clarify before they're spun out of all proportion, that my comments related to Western liberalism and democracy, with the intended implication that this applied to preserving the Western alliance and the liberal model in the Western world.
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Which party will you be voting for in the General Election?

Conservatives (145)
19.1%
Labour (323)
42.56%
Liberal Democrats (154)
20.29%
Green Party (41)
5.4%
Brexit Party (21)
2.77%
Independent Group for Change (Change UK) (2)
0.26%
SNP (9)
1.19%
Plaid Cymru (6)
0.79%
Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) (1)
0.13%
Sinn Fein (1)
0.13%
SDLP (0)
0%
Ulster Unionist (1)
0.13%
UKIP (7)
0.92%
Other (8)
1.05%
None (40)
5.27%

Watched Threads

View All