Winter Soldier: Iraq & Afghanistan | Iraq Veterans Against the War Watch

~ABR~
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#1
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I was surprised to not find this in D&D.
Remember the Winter Soldier conference where U.S soldiers exposed all the lies that covered their atrocities in Vietnam?

Well, here is the burning conscience of U.S Soldiers that drives them to repeat this huge event. This time with regards to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Winter Soldier: Iraq & Afghanistan | Iraq Veterans Against the War

You can find this in youtube as well.

May all of those who have supported the war on Iraq reflect upon the eyewitness accounts of these soldiers and make sure to not repeat this mistake.

Note: See the videos before you argue.
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unikq
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#2
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well im not surprised. no matter how toughened up these soldiers may be, they are still human, and they have a conscience - and war is horrible. i don't blame them
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~ABR~
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#3
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This is an interesting one.
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UniOfLife
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#4
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Didn't watch past 1:40.

First off, being the guy who holds a gun and does the fighting doesn't provide you with any moral superiority or any greater ability to condemn the war than those at home. The converse is self evidently true.

Secondly, to hear that testosterone and adrenaline fuelled soldiers say derogatory things about the people they have to kill is simply shocking (that was sarcasm, btw). How do you suppose a soldier kills a man if he thinks of that man's wife and children and father and mother and brothers and sisters? You cannot fight a war while being all nice and cuddly. A battlefield isn't filled with roses and puppies.

Thirdly, what nonsense is this guy spouting when complaining that the American people were also being racist when the US government (well actually the UNSC but who really cares about facts?) put sanctions on Iraq. Do we think he might possibly have a slight political bias? (again - sarcasm).

In short, the oral testimony of politically motivated former soldiers about their former colleagues is as worthless as a soldier who loves his enemy as himself. Great propaganda for fools though.
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PeeWeeDan
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#5
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It's a reality of war, entirely unsurprising.
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flugelr
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#6
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About the vid posted by ABR.

I watched the beginning of it. It isn't racism. We call them "Terry Taliban" and "Ragheads". It's isn't racism, it is a morale booster. If you have a offensive nickname for someone you are trying to kill it lets you mentaly look down on him.
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unikq
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#7
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well, i can understand both sides of the story completely in this case. it's not very hard to believe that some people will just one day be sick of all the war, and come back, and inevitably, (duh it's war) say **** things about it... truth is, war IS ****, we don't really need people who experienced it to tell us that.
but about the racism thing that the guy was trying to emphasise.. i have to agree with what people have been saying here on that one. you can't really go out and expect to kill someone, with a lack of disrespect.
At the end of the day, they are just doing their jobs, im bloody well glad there are people who ARE willing to get their hands dirty, so i don't have to, but the guy in the vid is just expressing his anger at the government for the **** he knows is happening on the other side of the world, which is more than fair enough.
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~ABR~
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#8
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(Original post by UniOfLife)
Didn't watch past 1:40.
I thought I didn't need to put in my thread. "Please see the videos before arguing."
First off, being the guy who holds a gun and does the fighting doesn't provide you with any moral superiority or any greater ability to condemn the war than those at home. The converse is self evidently true.
Eyewitnesses are very strong in truth.

Secondly, to hear that testosterone and adrenaline fuelled soldiers say derogatory things about the people they have to kill is simply shocking (that was sarcasm, btw). How do you suppose a soldier kills a man if he thinks of that man's wife and children and father and mother and brothers and sisters? You cannot fight a war while being all nice and cuddly. A battlefield isn't filled with roses and puppies.
Most of them are not very fueled or enraged... it's only that one that is 'interesting'. I thought you were going to see the rest too.

They are not just talking about how they are sad about killing innocent people. They are talking about POLICY. Instructions given to them from army officials. See this one too.
Thirdly, what nonsense is this guy spouting when complaining that the American people were also being racist when the US government (well actually the UNSC but who really cares about facts?) put sanctions on Iraq. Do we think he might possibly have a slight political bias? (again - sarcasm).
Oh for crying out loud. So it doesn't bother you that they were racist in the recent war on Iraq? "Hajjis","Camel Yada-yada".
In short, the oral testimony of politically motivated former soldiers about their former colleagues is as worthless as a soldier who loves his enemy as himself. Great propaganda for fools though.
It is a grave mistake to label this whole thing as propaganda. You have NO basis on what your saying. Just a part from ONE of the soldiers' testimonies? See the one above. See others too. Listen to at least a handful of these soldiers before you make a generalization like this.
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~ABR~
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#9
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I assumed such a thing would be of interest to most of you so you would search in youtube by yourself. See Jon Turner's testimony. His company commander gave him a personal congratulations after his first kill of an innocent man. This is no bizarre rant that is bought by foolish people. It is a perfectly valid testimony.

Be more open-minded, UniOfLife. Your response was as I expected... based on nothing. It's just not possible to have such a view about this unless you didn't really watch it (your case) or if arrogance beats you (I hope it's no-one here). It's as clear as the sun.
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UniOfLife
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I am open minded but I'm not an idiot. This is propaganda plain and simple. What better to make people hate themselves than to parade a group of former soldiers complaining about how the US government kills innocent people and the army is evil and the American people are responsible.

As I said before, soldiers cannot be all nice and cuddly with their enemy. If you have to kill people it is far easier to do that while thinking of them as worthless piles of meat than people with families and friends. Would you rather a compassionate army full of dead soldiers or an aggressive army full of mean killing machines?

I'm not going to waste many hours watching these people talk so please let me know - what is it you're hoping I will learn from them? Do they reveal that the US deliberately kills innocent people? That American soldiers rape women and girls in villages? That the American people are deeply racist and hate Muslims? Tell me, what do these people reveal?
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~ABR~
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#11
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(Original post by UniOfLife)
I am open minded but I'm not an idiot. This is propaganda plain and simple. What better to make people hate themselves than to parade a group of former soldiers complaining about how the US government kills innocent people and the army is evil and the American people are responsible.
No. This is what you feel. You have no knowledge of this.
As I said before, soldiers cannot be all nice and cuddly with their enemy. If you have to kill people it is far easier to do that while thinking of them as worthless piles of meat than people with families and friends. Would you rather a compassionate army full of dead soldiers or an aggressive army full of mean killing machines?
edit: What about killing families and friends themselves? This is what the soldiers are revealing. Instructions of "kill everyone" if one man from a crowd of people starts fire. Is this enough for you to go see them?
I'm not going to waste many hours watching these people talk so please let me know - what is it you're hoping I will learn from them? Do they reveal that the US deliberately kills innocent people?
Yes. Their accepting of their soldiers to kill innocent people, not only that but congratulate them (Jon Turner), is one evidence.
That American soldiers rape women and girls in villages?
Abu Ghreib speaks for itself.
That the American people are deeply racist and hate Muslims?
No. No-one says this.


edit: and excuse me I edit too much
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UniOfLife
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^No one says this? The first video I watched said this within 1:40 which is why I stopped watching. He blamed the American people.

It is propaganda because propaganda is defined as:
"information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause"

If you link to the specific video in which the claim about killing everyone is made and give me the time reference I will look.

You mean one time one guy allegedly congratulated a soldier. Again, link to the video with the time and I'll look. Has the officer responsible for these incidents been prosecuted? Have the soldiers complaining reported him?

Abu Ghreib indeed speaks for itself. That you cite it tells me all I need to know about the quality of the evidence on display and what you get from it.
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~ABR~
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(Original post by UniOfLife)
^No one says this? The first video I watched said this within 1:40 which is why I stopped watching. He blamed the American people.

It is propaganda because propaganda is defined as:
"information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause"

If you link to the specific video in which the claim about killing everyone is made and give me the time reference I will look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUIPZ8PBczs 3:50 . The rest of what is said is not a 'waste of time'. He makes some really good points right from the beginning... confirming the racism (1:00). There are so many important points to time reference.


You mean one time one guy allegedly congratulated a soldier. Again, link to the video with the time and I'll look. Has the officer responsible for these incidents been prosecuted? Have the soldiers complaining reported him?
(Original post by ~ABR~)
I assumed such a thing would be of interest to most of you so you would search in youtube by yourself. See Jon Turner's testimony. His company commander gave him a personal congratulations after his first kill of an innocent man. This is no bizarre rant that is bought by foolish people. It is a perfectly valid testimony.
I also won't waste my time watching it over and over again to reference the time for you :rolleyes:

Don't know the stuff in bold.
Abu Ghreib indeed speaks for itself. That you cite it tells me all I need to know about the quality of the evidence on display and what you get from it.
:s:
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~ABR~
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(Original post by UniOfLife)
Has the officer responsible for these incidents been prosecuted?
Given what the marines that massacred 19 civilians in haditha faced, I highly doubt it.
Yes that's the haditha incident that was covered by the lies, and only after further investigations and eye-witnesses said otherwise they exposed themselves.
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UniOfLife
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So you're citing the trial of Marines for illegal acts in Iraq as proof that illegal acts in Iraq get official approval and receive no punishment? Kind of warped logic don't you think?
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