Opinions on BREXIT and current status?? Watch

Sam1999__
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#81
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#81
(Original post by nulli tertius)
Wales has been in a political union with England since 1284. In what sense does Wales not have a national identity?
It has a very weak national identity, for example, many peoples overseas simply refer to the United Kingdom as 'England' because England is the prevailing force of the British Isles. My concern is, given enough European integration over time the UK will simply be referred to as Europe, with Britain being little more than a state of a federal Europe. There is also a danger that future generations will feel more affinity to the European flag and European identity instead of our own British flag and identity, luckily though all of these theories are irrelevant as the patriotic vote won and we will leave the EU.
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nulli tertius
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#82
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#82
(Original post by Sam1999__)
It has a very weak national identity, for example, many peoples overseas simply refer to the United Kingdom as 'England' because England is the prevailing force of the British Isles. My concern is, given enough European integration over time the UK will simply be referred to as Europe, with Britain being little more than a state of a federal Europe. There is also a danger that future generations will feel more affinity to the European flag and European identity instead of our own British flag and identity, luckily though all of these theories are irrelevant as the patriotic vote won and we will leave the EU.
Go to the Millenium Stadium and see how weak their national identity is.
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AJ126y
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#83
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#83
(Original post by Sam1999__)
Economics are worthless if you lose your national identity, all the money in the world cannot replace your nation. Nations are just as important today as ever so I don't understand your 1940s point. Also, please don't describe us being a sovereign nation as 'buffoonery'. Ones nation is second only to your family and friends, it's not something to be infringed upon for the sake of a one sided economic argument in favor of the EU
I can honestly say I couldn't give two ****s about which particular bit of land I happen to be born on and neither should you. Your country doesn't care about you so why should you care about it? For all the government cares you could be lying dead in a ditch and it would be no biggie. Nationalism is up there with religion as one of the stupidest ideas of all time.
Last edited by AJ126y; 2 weeks ago
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DraconisAudiat
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#84
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#84
I think Sam1999 is just trolling us now, if you're using Ode To Joy as one of your reasons to hate the EU then you're either making it up or you've got a screw loose.
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Sam1999__
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#85
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#85
(Original post by AJ126y)
I can honestly say I couldn't give two ****s about which particular bit of land I happen to be born on and neither should you. Your country doesn't care about you so why should you care about it? For all the government cares you could be lying dead in a ditch and it would be no biggie. Nationalism is up there with religion as one of the stupidest ideas of all time.
Well that's your opinion but plenty of people including myself are incredibly proud to call themselves British. I consider my country to have had a huge impact on me and I owe it everything. I was born in England and I will be buried in British soil, I would shed every last drop of blood in my body for my nation as there is nowhere else in the world to call home, sure you could move to any old country and buy a house to call home but nothing can ever replace your country you have spent your entire life and be raised in. There is nowhere else in the world I could ever call a permanent home. My allegiance is to the flag of the United Kingdom, the EU flag means nothing to me.

I believe in Britain, not the EU. The idea that we as one of the greatest countries in human history are dependent on the EU is a farce and complete nonsense. The EU has no legitimacy, it was supposed to be a trade deal and now it is mutating before our eyes. We can be friends and trading partners Europe without being in a political union. I love Europe but hate the European Union, that's fine though because the patriotic masses voted to leave and leave we shall, no remoaner whinging will change that.
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Sam1999__
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#86
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#86
(Original post by DraconisAudiat)
I think Sam1999 is just trolling us now, if you're using Ode To Joy as one of your reasons to hate the EU then you're either making it up or you've got a screw loose.
Actually the Ode to Joy is a pretty good symbol of how far the EU has mutated behind closed doors. What started as a trade deal, purely economic in nature, has now started to take steps towards a federal union. The EU is trying to become a nation, alas Brexit is the first brick out of the wall and I suspect when other European countries with a euro-skeptic population see from us that it is possible to thrive outside of the EU, many more will follow our example. Euro skeptisim is on the rise right across Europe, the end of the EU is on the horizon.
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imlikeahermit
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Sam1999__)
Well that's your opinion but plenty of people including myself are incredibly proud to call themselves British. I consider my country to have had a huge impact on me and I owe it everything. I was born in England and I will be buried in British soil, I would shed every last drop of blood in my body for my nation as there is nowhere else in the world to call home, sure you could move to any old country and buy a house to call home but nothing can ever replace your country you have spent your entire life and be raised in. There is nowhere else in the world I could ever call a permanent home. My allegiance is to the flag of the United Kingdom, the EU flag means nothing to me.

I believe in Britain, not the EU. The idea that we as one of the greatest countries in human history are dependent on the EU is a farce and complete nonsense. The EU has no legitimacy, it was supposed to be a trade deal and now it is mutating before our eyes. We can be friends and trading partners Europe without being in a political union. I love Europe but hate the European Union, that's fine though because the patriotic masses voted to leave and leave we shall, no remoaner whinging will change that.
So your opinion is, **** it, it doesn’t matter how poor we become, we’ll have our identity back? Laughable, can I ask, do you work at all?
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Sam1999__
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#88
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#88
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
So your opinion is, **** it, it doesn’t matter how poor we become, we’ll have our identity back? Laughable, can I ask, do you work at all?
Yes, I work 16 hours per week and i'm also a University student. Also leaving the EU doesn't mean we have to become poor, in fact there is another side to that argument that says we will actually be better off, we contribute more the the EU than we receive so it's a no brainer. Even Comrade Corbyn who lots of students seem to adore said that he thinks we could be better off outside the EU.

All the lefties and remoaners on this forum seem closed minded to the fact that we may actually end up better off outside the EU, many non EU countries on the continent such as Norway or Switzerland are doing just fine, great even. Brexit will likely hit our economy short term but benefit it long term, in addition a small hit of a couple of % to our economy is a price worth paying for our sovereignty and to defend our status as a nation state for years to come. I fully believe that our great nation will flourish outside of the European Union and clearly so does over half of the British people.
Last edited by Sam1999__; 2 weeks ago
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bj27
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#89
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#89
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
:rofl:
that made me chuckle.

I get there are legitimate reasons to leave the EU but come on let's be serious here, kill our economy for national identity is such a narrow-minded way of thinking.

Like we are part of a land but really it doesn't matter which land we are on. What matters is how life is for the public on that land, would it be better in the EU or not, that would go down to how strong the economy is. A stronger economy means more jobs, higher wage growth to cost of living, all the tangible stuff that actually makes life better and not left field abstract concepts like nationalism.

Obviously I'd rather stay in but at the same time you gotta respect the result of the referendum. Same way if the public vote in Tories you can't say no labour are better so they should come in instead. Only issue is that nobody prepared for a leave situation and thus nobody knows how to deal with it.
Last edited by bj27; 2 weeks ago
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Sam1999__
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#90
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#90
(Original post by bj27)
that made me chuckle.

I get there are legitimate reasons to leave the EU but come on let's be serious here, kill our economy for national identity is such a narrow-minded way of thinking.

Like we are part of a land but really it doesn't matter which land we are on. What matters is how life is for the public on that land, would it be better in the EU or not, that would go down to how strong the economy is. A stronger economy means more jobs, higher wage growth to cost of living, all the tangible stuff that actually makes life better and not left field abstract concepts like nationalism.

Obviously I'd rather stay in but at the same time you gotta respect the result of the referendum. Same way if the public vote in Tories you can't say no labour are better so they should come in instead. Only issue is that nobody prepared for a leave situation and thus nobody knows how to deal with it.
Well we can agree to disagree on the national identity aspect, the reality is though leaving the EU will not 'kill' our economy, even the doomsayers are talking in terms of a hit to our economy rather than completely destroying it. National identity is the next thing in importance to family and friends so I would argue within reason an economic hit is a price worth paying, it gets to the point though where it is not worth it, that exact point is of course open for debate. Also it's possible there will be an economic benefit to Brexit so it's a win win
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bj27
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#91
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#91
(Original post by Sam1999__)
Well we can agree to disagree on the national identity aspect, the reality is though leaving the EU will not 'kill' our economy, even the doomsayers are talking in terms of a hit to our economy rather than completely destroying it. National identity is the next thing in importance to family and friends so I would argue within reason an economic hit is a price worth paying, it gets to the point though where it is not worth it, that exact point is of course open for debate. Also it's possible there will be an economic benefit to Brexit so it's a win win
I see your point. I'm just saying the way you made it is like who cares if the economy dies as long as you get your 'national identity' back. It ain't gonna be a massive massive hit on the economy simply because of London being a major financial centre in the world which will again mean that resources would be centralised to London and trickle down to neighbouring areas. For me national identity doesn't mean much, it's just another arbitrary label to group individuals that isn't needed.

Now we could be wrong or I could be wrong and the UK finds a way to manage the hit effectively, but the parliament can't even agree on a deal and there are so many different opinions on the implications of deal/no deal/remain. Clearly this is more hassle than its worth, but again you gotta respect the result as it's a democracy.
Last edited by bj27; 2 weeks ago
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leilaxtt
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#92
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#92
(Original post by YOLOYOLO2)
What are your opinions on this particular situation? Are you for or against it? What do you think will happen in parliament tommorrow? I'm just curious lol Personally I'd wanna remain but that just my opinion!
100% want to remain and i am against the far-right group that are The Conservatives because i am for the many, not the few. To have fairness and equality for all.
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DraconisAudiat
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Sam1999__)
Ode to Joy is a pretty good symbol of how far the EU has mutated behind closed doors.
...
Euro skeptisim is on the rise right across Europe, the end of the EU is on the horizon.
Various studies and polls have shown Euroskepticism is falling across Europe and the supposed 'domino effect' of countries leaving the EU was yet another myth from the Leave campaign. Any countries considering leaving the EU will see the UK make a mess of it and decide to stay in.

If you hate Ode To Joy so much how do you watch Die Hard at Christmas? Do you mute the TV when they open the safe near the end?
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QE2
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#94
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#94
(Original post by DraconisAudiat)
If you hate Ode To Joy so much how do you watch Die Hard at Christmas? Do you mute the TV when they open the safe near the end?
Erm... spoiler alert?
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AJ126y
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#95
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#95
(Original post by Sam1999__)
Well that's your opinion but plenty of people including myself are incredibly proud to call themselves British. I consider my country to have had a huge impact on me and I owe it everything. I was born in England and I will be buried in British soil, I would shed every last drop of blood in my body for my nation as there is nowhere else in the world to call home, sure you could move to any old country and buy a house to call home but nothing can ever replace your country you have spent your entire life and be raised in. There is nowhere else in the world I could ever call a permanent home. My allegiance is to the flag of the United Kingdom, the EU flag means nothing to me.

I believe in Britain, not the EU. The idea that we as one of the greatest countries in human history are dependent on the EU is a farce and complete nonsense. The EU has no legitimacy, it was supposed to be a trade deal and now it is mutating before our eyes. We can be friends and trading partners Europe without being in a political union. I love Europe but hate the European Union, that's fine though because the patriotic masses voted to leave and leave we shall, no remoaner whinging will change that.
Why would you be proud of being British? Did you do something to earn it? Perhaps you passed some kind of test in a previous life and got reincarnated as a Briton? It makes no sense to be proud of something you didn't accomplish. And plenty of people did shed their blood for their country which is why nationalism is so stupid. It leads to wars when there is no need for it.

If we're really as great a nation as you say then we should work from within the EU. You can't make the rules of a club if you're not part of the club. If we stayed within the EU we could make the rules. Leaving gives us no say in anything the EU does which makes us weaker. And we might not be dependent on them but considering they are closest to us geographically it makes sense to have favourable trading conditions.
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Napp
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#96
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#96
To be honest who cares these days..
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ColinDent
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#97
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#97
(Original post by DraconisAudiat)
Various studies and polls have shown Euroskepticism is falling across Europe and the supposed 'domino effect' of countries leaving the EU was yet another myth from the Leave campaign. Any countries considering leaving the EU will see the UK make a mess of it and decide to stay in.

If you hate Ode To Joy so much how do you watch Die Hard at Christmas? Do you mute the TV when they open the safe near the end?
Various studies and polls? What do they say that differs from results in elections across most of the EU which continue to see rises in votes for "populist" parties, I think they are a far better indicator of the ever growing dissatisfaction amongst the citizens of the EU against their, and unfortunately still our, overlords in Brussels.
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winterscoming
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#98
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#98
(Original post by Sam1999__)
many peoples overseas simply refer to the United Kingdom as 'England' because England is the prevailing force of the British Isles.
People who are clueless/ignorant about international geography? Why do those people matter to you? There are people in the world who still refer to the Earth as being flat - do they bother you as well? Maybe spend less time caring about what other people think when those people don't affect you..?

(Original post by Sam1999__)
My concern is, given enough European integration over time the UK will simply be referred to as Europe with Britain being little more than a state of a federal Europe.
The UK has the ability to veto and permanently opt out of any more European integration. Just as it has permanent opt-outs from the Euro and Schengen, which are enshrined into legally-binding international treaties.

(Original post by Sam1999__)
There is also a danger that future generations will feel more affinity to the European flag and European identity instead of our own British flag and identity
Based on what? Scotland has been in the UK for 400 years (which is a far closer union than that between the UK and EU), do you see any less affinity to the Scottish flag there? Why does this matter to you anyway and how do other peoples' personal preferences affect you?

Also, who gives you the right to make decisions for future generations or to decide how other people can or cannot identify themselves? This sounds more like main motivation seems to be about taking other people's personal choices away from them when they don't match with yours, rather than allowing them to choose for themselves. You also seem very bigoted about ways in which other people choose to define their identity - a matter which is frankly none of your concern.

Since identity and identity politics seems so important to you, why not just focus on your own identity instead of projecting your insecurities about your identity onto others?


(Original post by Sam1999__)
all of these theories are irrelevant as the patriotic vote won and we will leave the EU.
Could you explain what is patriotic about these?
  • Sudden devaluation of the pound allowing foreign billionaires to swoop in and buy up successful British businesses like ARM at a hugely discounted price
  • Permanent long-term damage to the UK economy, estimated at a loss of around 9% of GDP after 15 years according to the UK treasury analysis conducted in November 2018. (9% of GDP is somewhere in the hundreds of billions of pounds).
  • Putting up trade barriers which harm hundreds of thousands of UK businesses by adding significant time, cost and bureaucracy to being able to sell their goods to all of their existing EU customers.
  • Having the cost of essential imported items like food, medicine and clothing increased due to higher tariffs and other trade barriers. (The UK is not self-sufficient in any of thse, e.g. we only have enough land to cultivate enough food for about 60% of our population)
  • Hugely increasing the likelihood of the UK itself breaking up (Scottish independence, Irish reunification).
  • Forcing financial services companies into a position where they need to move tens of thousands jobs and billions in tax revenues out to other European countries in order to continue to serve their EU customers and be profitable.
  • Making the UK less-attractive to large sums of international investment due to its loss of status and trading arrangements within the EU - such as Banks and US companies who see the UK as being their gateway to Europe.
  • Drastically weakening the UK's standing in international diplomacy by throwing away all influence it has over the remaining EU 27 members.
  • Disrupting the lives of 3+ million good, hard-working EU nationals who love the UK so much that they decided to build their entire lives here
  • Scrapping the rights of British people to freely live and work in 27 other countries. Also scrapping their rights to free healthcare in those countries.
  • Permanently increasing the amount of money to be spent on additional government bureaucracy every year to manage relations between UK/EU after leaving and needing to spend alot more money on UK regulatory bodies after it splits away from institutions like EASA (Air Safety), Euratom, etc. .
  • Reducing the UK's ability to lead efforts in cutting-edge scientific research by pulling it out of EU-wide R&D projects
  • Damaging the UK's ability to protect itself against foreign criminals by pulling out of intelligence-sharing and security arrangements with other EU nations and Europol

And the benefit we get is.... All the little-englanders can stop feeling so insecure about their "British Identity".
Last edited by winterscoming; 2 weeks ago
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imlikeahermit
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#99
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#99
(Original post by Sam1999__)
Yes, I work 16 hours per week and i'm also a University student. Also leaving the EU doesn't mean we have to become poor, in fact there is another side to that argument that says we will actually be better off, we contribute more the the EU than we receive so it's a no brainer. Even Comrade Corbyn who lots of students seem to adore said that he thinks we could be better off outside the EU.

All the lefties and remoaners on this forum seem closed minded to the fact that we may actually end up better off outside the EU, many non EU countries on the continent such as Norway or Switzerland are doing just fine, great even. Brexit will likely hit our economy short term but benefit it long term, in addition a small hit of a couple of % to our economy is a price worth paying for our sovereignty and to defend our status as a nation state for years to come. I fully believe that our great nation will flourish outside of the European Union and clearly so does over half of the British people.
So you work 16 hours as a university student who no doubt had their degree paid for by the state, and are no doubt being funded by the state at the moment to live, as in housing and food? In which case then, I can see how easy it is to put British Identity above economics but it just makes you sound stupid to be honest.

I am yet to see that other side of the argument that says we will be better off outside of the EU. Boris’ brexit deal will make each person £1100 worse off a year. Your right, that’s much better off, because we’ll have our identity back...

Do you listen to economic experts, or are you like every other leaver and just ignoring the voices of countless industry experts while standing there, beating your chest and saying 17.4 million? Pathetic.
Last edited by imlikeahermit; 2 weeks ago
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Marcus...
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#100
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#100
What current status? It’s been the same for years now
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