Kremlin Watch - Russian Meddling Around the World

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Ascend
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#1
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#1
A thread on Russia's attempts to undermine the liberal international order.

I was going to start the first post with the USA edition but that's just essentially: Trump.

So here's a current NATO edition:

"[...] Putin has successfully used Turkey to undermine NATO and to weaken the Syrian rebellion by diverting attention away from Assad."

https://ahvalnews-com.cdn.ampproject...-win-syria?amp
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Wōden
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#2
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#2
Every nation with power and influence meddles in the affairs of others for strategic gain, nothing new there. The West (especially the US) is just as guilty of this skullduggery, we are just better at sugarcoating it.
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username2950448
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#3
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#3
Now do the US.
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username2393237
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#4
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#4
America’s problems certainly didn’t begin with Trump and US foreign policy was abhorrent long before he became president.
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Ascend
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#5
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#5
I didn't expect the whataboutery until at least 10 posts in.

But give me America's internationalist evil over Russia's any day of the week.
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Ascend
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#6
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#6
(Original post by Wōden)
just as guilty of this skullduggery, we are just better at sugarcoating it.
Why do you think you are better at sugarcoating it? Or, more importantly, that you even feel you need to sugarcoat?

There's an element of shame or at least the pretence of it within a liberal internationalist conscience that has taken up nearly a century to build and implement. It is by no means perfect (and goodness knows it's implemented imperfectly or disastrously at times) BUT...

...and this goes to Palmyra and YaliaV as well...

What viable alternative would you suggest to this?

What is Russia's solution? Or China's?
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Andrew97
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#7
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#7
Everyone does it tbh. If you were in power in a country, you would do some meddling if it were to your advantage.
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Napp
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#8
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(Original post by Ascend)
A thread on Russia's attempts to undermine the liberal international order.

I was going to start the first post with the USA edition but that's just essentially: Trump.

So here's a current NATO edition:

"[...] Putin has successfully used Turkey to undermine NATO and to weaken the Syrian rebellion by diverting attention away from Assad."
You seem to give Russia far more credit than its due... especially as the err 'liberal democracies' of the world seem hell bent on subverting themselves from within any way.
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Ascend
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#9
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(Original post by Napp)
You seem to give Russia far more credit than its due... especially as the err 'liberal democracies' of the world seem hell bent on subverting themselves from within any way.
No, that's not what I credit relatively powerless vultures like Russia to have done. They merely take advantage of weaknesses* already developed. And they're milking it.

The question remains: what's an ideal alternative to the liberal Atlanticist/UN/EU/NATO domination in an already globalised world?

*see Western self-hatred as one of many relevant examples that also explain some of the reactions in this very thread
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Ascend
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#10
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#10
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...t-trump-229861

"There’s one thing the Kremlin wants even more than sowing chaos in the United States: Keeping Trump in the White House."

There are many ways in which the Ukraine affair is terrifying the Kremlin, because it threatens to unwind what little progress Russia has made in recent years and undercuts its wider goals. Putin’s long-term goal is pretty clear: He wants the United States to conclude a “big deal” that would revise the outcome of the Cold War and limit the strategic threat that he believes the West poses to Russia through its military expansion, double standards in foreign affairs and liberal values.
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Napp
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Ascend)
No, that's not what I credit relatively powerless vultures like Russia to have done. They merely take advantage of weaknesses* already developed. And they're milking it.
With all due respect but you seem to be putting forth two diametrically opposing views here... either Russia is a malign superpower we should all tremble at or its not in which case we can happily ignore her.
Either way, as i said, i maintain you seem to be giving Russia far too much credit for what is effectively a self made issue. I mean, as has been noted, what Russia is doing is neither particularly novel nor limited solely to them. Election engineering is a western forte after all and you can hardly blame them for Syria, after all i dont believe it was them who armed and trained terrorists there.
The question remains: what's an ideal alternative to the liberal Atlanticist/UN/EU/NATO domination in an already globalised world?
Well that rather depends whom you ask... I imagine the countries that have imploded thanks to western 'intervention' would have a somewhat dubious view on how useful NATO is. With hundreds of thousands dead across the ME thanks to our weapons.
*see Western self-hatred as one of many relevant examples that also explain some of the reactions in this very thread
I'll give the article a read this evening
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Ascend
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#12
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#12
(Original post by Napp)
With all due respect but you seem to be putting forth two diametrically opposing views here... either Russia is a malign superpower we should all tremble at or its not in which case we can happily ignore her.
Either way, as i said, i maintain you seem to be giving Russia far too much credit for what is effectively a self made issue. I mean, as has been noted, what Russia is doing is neither particularly novel nor limited solely to them. Election engineering is a western forte after all and you can hardly blame them for Syria, after all i dont believe it was them who armed and trained terrorists there.
No one is talking about either "trembling" at it or "ignoring" it.

A. Russia is militarily and economically weak in comparison. No trembling necessary.
B. Its explicit 'malignancy' towards a liberal world order is a clear stated aim. This is not to be ignored by liberals.
C. Liberal democracies are already in bad shape.
D. Russia's efforts to take advantage of those weaknesses have been fruitful so far.

Well that rather depends whom you ask... I imagine the countries that have imploded thanks to western 'intervention' would have a somewhat dubious view on how useful NATO is. With hundreds of thousands dead across the ME thanks to our weapons.
Yes, yes, once again no one is disputing the evils of Western intervention. Bad West! Spank! But... Russia is a viable alternative? Did they come to the rescue or merely add on to the civilian body count indiscriminately and shamelessly?
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Ascend
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#13
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#13
https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/st...890702850?s=20

An analysis of bot operations in support of Democratic presidential candidate Tulsi Gabbard. Prime suspect: Russia.

It's predicted that she'll eventually run as a third party candidate.
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Napp
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Ascend)
No one is talking about either "trembling" at it or "ignoring" it.

A. Russia is militarily and economically weak in comparison. No trembling necessary.
B. Its explicit 'malignancy' towards a liberal world order is a clear stated aim. This is not to be ignored by liberals.
C. Liberal democracies are already in bad shape.
D. Russia's efforts to take advantage of those weaknesses have been fruitful so far.
Then pray tell what is your conclusion?
A) Debatable, it might be weaker than NATO but on an individual scale it is named as a near peer competitor to the US and thus is better than every other country in NATO... I mean this isnt even a debatable point. Economically though, you have a relative point although that depends on which measure we use as on a PPP scale it is better than the UK, if memory serves.
B) I'd still be more concerned by the UK and US's turn towards authoritarianism than Russias.
C) Indeed but whose fault is that is the real question
D) Again, indeed, albeit to a point. although i'd disagree with your phrasing of 'taking advantage'
Yes, yes, once again no one is disputing the evils of Western intervention. Bad West! Spank! But... Russia is a viable alternative? Did they come to the rescue or merely add on to the civilian body count indiscriminately and shamelessly?
Isnt that the whole point of this debate? Russia versus the west and all that clap trap?
Either way, Russia has never presented itself as an alternative, as it were. It presents itself as another pole in a multipolar world and with specific relation to the ME it seems to have a point... it is seen to have stuck by its partners (unlike the west) and has been a force for the status quo (what ever you make of that).
Either way of course it has added to the body count but considering the Syrian "opposition" (read: terrorists) were trained and armed by various NATO countries and indeed ISIS was a direct result of western "intervention" well, the maths speaks for itself on that count.
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username2950448
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#15
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#15
"A Carnegie Mellon scholar, Dov H. Levin, has scoured the historical record for both overt and covert election influence operations. He found 81 by the United States and 36 by the Soviet Union or Russia between 1946 and 2000"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/s...do-it-too.html
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