Brexit the Movie 31 - Now It Gets Really Heavy Watch

Fullofsurprises
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Yes in his usual biast manner, the government has let's be honest a mistake now by the government for pulling the vote on Saturday, it had the well it was certainly close to the numbers.

Now bercow is litterally making no deal more likely.
It isn't bias, it's enforcing the ancient rules of the House to not have the government repeatedly browbeat the House with the same demands until the House gives way.

The likelihood of a No Deal is I think probably not much affected by this - the result of what's just happened is that the government must now bring the bill to the House for scrutiny. Generally, better scrutinised legislation survives better and has better results.
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Burton Bridge
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#22
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#22
Also let's not forget the Johnson deal has not been voted on yet, we know letwin supported the deal after the amendment and many others. Therefore is has not been previously voted on, therefore there is no "beating" of parliament to vote for it, it's a nonsense.

It's all on the assumption that the EU will grant an extension, he is denying us the knowledge of knowing if parliament is in support of the deal or not. The speaker will make decisions that dont sut well with one group everyone and then but it's amazing how he consistently seems to please the remain anti democratic side and not the other democratic side
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Burton Bridge
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It isn't bias, it's enforcing the ancient rules of the House to not have the government repeatedly browbeat the House with the same demands until the House gives way.

The likelihood of a No Deal is I think probably not much affected by this - the result of what's just happened is that the government must now bring the bill to the House for scrutiny. Generally, better scrutinised legislation survives better and has better results.
While you was writing that I was writing another post, which deals with some points you make.

No that's not true, bercow has now blocked the deal from being voted on at all. The government now need to change the agreement AGAIN at the frustration of the EU and country, that's how I see that.

This makes no deal more likely mate, don't it?
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Fullofsurprises
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
While you was writing that I was writing another post, which deals with some points you make.

No that's not true, bercow has now blocked the deal from being voted on at all. The government now need to change the agreement AGAIN at the frustration of the EU and country, that's how I see that.

This makes no deal more likely mate, don't it?
That's just not right BB. the aim of bringing the protocol back for a vote today was to try to short-circuit the process of being forced to request an extension, not to prevent discussion of the Bill. Leave it a bit and you'll see.
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fallen_acorns
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#25
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#25
I think considering the Letwin amendment... the speakers decision makes sense.

However the amendment is a pain as, yes its good to vote after all the details have been released and been debated/amended.. its also useful to get a general idea of where the goverment stands on the deal. I would think it would have been useful to first have an indicative vote of support (but not a blank check) and the guarentee of a meaningful vote at the end of the process. Bassically a vote to endorse the deal at the start, and another at the end to finalise it.

It seems now we could potentially waste a lot of time on something that never had the support in the first place. (which kind of was the point for some of those who supported it.. that delay pushes Boris into asking for an extension and removes the chance of no deal, for now, after all)
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Burton Bridge
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
That's just not right BB. the aim of bringing the protocol back for a vote today was to try to short-circuit the process of being forced to request an extension, not to prevent discussion of the Bill. Leave it a bit and you'll see.
Sorry I dont think you are correct, the letter has been sent. We have already requested an extension
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Fullofsurprises
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Sorry I dont think you are correct, the letter has been sent. We have already requested an extension
I think the idea was that if this passed through, Boris could then go back to the EU and say "hey, no need for that letter after all" and the EU would agree and also Boris would not be in contempt potentially for doing so.
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Burton Bridge
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#28
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#28
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
I think considering the Letwin amendment... the speakers decision makes sense.

However the amendment is a pain as, yes its good to vote after all the details have been released and been debated/amended.. its also useful to get a general idea of where the goverment stands on the deal. I would think it would have been useful to first have an indicative vote of support (but not a blank check) and the guarentee of a meaningful vote at the end of the process. Bassically a vote to endorse the deal at the start, and another at the end to finalise it.

It seems now we could potentially waste a lot of time on something that never had the support in the first place. (which kind of was the point for some of those who supported it.. that delay pushes Boris into asking for an extension and removes the chance of no deal, for now, after all)
I'm sorry how does this remove no deal? The extension has been asked for, that's done, No deal is the legal default. Unless the EU grant an extension based on no reason, nothing will change.
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Burton Bridge
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I think the idea was that if this passed through, Boris could then go back to the EU and say "hey, no need for that letter after all" and the EU would agree and also Boris would not be in contempt potentially for doing so.
However this was never voted on mate, only the letwin wrecking amendment was.
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fallen_acorns
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I'm sorry how does this remove no deal? The extension has been asked for, that's done, No deal is the legal default. Unless the EU grant an extension based on no reason, nothing will change.
The letwin amendment forced boris to ask for an extension, the EU is always going to grant it - so it does in practise remove the chance of a no deal - for now.
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Fullofsurprises
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
However this was never voted on mate, only the letwin wrecking amendment was.
The government withdrew it as it meant inevitably that it would proceed to the bill, but then Rees-Mogg on a point of order tried to get it back today - that has failed and the Brexit Minister has just confirmed from the Bar of the Commons that the Bill will commence this afternoon, albeit following an urgent question from the Leader of the Opposition.
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Burton Bridge
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#32
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#32
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
The letwin amendment forced boris to ask for an extension, the EU is always going to grant it - so it does in practise remove the chance of a no deal - for now.
Yes it did and borris did this. Well the EU is likely too grant it however it is no certain in particular because this will be based on nothing.

The baist Bercow has now made this inpossible to know if the deal is the will of parliament for not. The letwin amendment, amended somthing (client is in the name) the amendment passed the vote was pulled on the amended deal. It never happened, now bercow has denied us from having a vote on said deal.

The only people that are happy with this are hard core remainers who wish to stop Brexit altogether, why not allow this deal to be voted on? Because the speaker doesn't wish to leave the EU
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 4 weeks ago
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Fullofsurprises
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#33
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#33
Leading Brexiteer John Redwood praised the Speaker for "not submitting us to another Groundhog Day" with his ruling. Evidently not all Tories feel the same way as the government on this point.
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Burton Bridge
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#34
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Jo Swindon quote just now "if the prime minister was allowed to change his mind and request an extension then surely the British people should be allowed to do so" (re: referendum II)

Errrrrrrrr slight problem there sweetheart, Johnson didn't change his mind, he was forced to request an extension by law. Clown
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nulli tertius
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I think the idea was that if this passed through, Boris could then go back to the EU and say "hey, no need for that letter after all" and the EU would agree and also Boris would not be in contempt potentially for doing so.
That might have been the view in 10 Downing Street. I don’t think that was the view in the Parliament House. Lord Carloway is treating him like an errant husband who won’t transfer the matrimonial home.
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Fullofsurprises
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#36
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#36
(Original post by nulli tertius)
That might have been the view in 10 Downing Street. I don’t think that was the view in the Parliament House. Lord Carloway is treating him like an errant husband who won’t transfer the matrimonial home.
Isn't that actually the correct way to treat him, given his record? In fact, like an errant husband who is hiding his assets and has lied about his marital infidelities. Of course, Boris has experience with that as well.
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Fullofsurprises
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#37
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#37
It was depressing today to see the extent to which backbench Tory MPs are using and cashing in on the nationalistic fervour that Brexit has created in constituencies, running it as jingoistic ranting and anti-democratic statements and demands. Even the poor Speaker is not immune, with them constantly attacking him.

Not very long ago, the UK was a stable, extremely prosperous, markedly tolerant and open multiracial society at peace with itself, confident in Europe and the world and seeing few problems. Now - well, just listen to some Tory MPs. It's more like a Bulgarian football terrace.
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Fullofsurprises
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#38
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#38
It does now seem clear that Northern Ireland businesses are going to have to complete export forms to send goods to the UK under Boris's increasingly shabby and dishonest deal. Absolutely bizarre from the Conservative and Unionist Party.
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nulli tertius
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
It does now seem clear that Northern Ireland businesses are going to have to complete export forms to send goods to the UK under Boris's increasingly shabby and dishonest deal. Absolutely bizarre from the Conservative and Unionist Party.
This may cost him some Tory/rebel votes. He had Nicholas Soames on Friday; does Boris have him today?
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DSilva
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
While you was writing that I was writing another post, which deals with some points you make.

No that's not true, bercow has now blocked the deal from being voted on at all. The government now need to change the agreement AGAIN at the frustration of the EU and country, that's how I see that.

This makes no deal more likely mate, don't it?
I'm not sure that's correct. The Letwin amendment means that the legislation implementing the WAB must be passed before a meaningful vote can take place. The government today tried to hold a meaningful vote before the WAB. That issue was settled on Saturday. Even if Bercow had allowed the vote, it would have probably been amended again by Letwin to the same effect.

It's a hugely significant piece of legislation which will have a profound impact on the country for years if not decades to come. That surely demands the highest level of scrutiny, not to be rushed through to meet an arbitrary deadline.

Years down the line once, are you going to care that we left the EU on November 10th rather than October 31st?
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