Is ethnonationalism inherently racist and/or hateful? Watch

username4998248
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Discuss.
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londonmyst
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No.
But ethno-nationalism provides the ideal conditions for separatism, xenophobia, jingoism, narrow mindedness and race hate to flourish.
As do many identity politics dogmas.
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username4998248
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(Original post by londonmyst)
No.
But ethno-nationalism provides the ideal conditions for separatism, xenophobia, jingoism, narrow mindedness and race hate to flourish.
As do many identity politics dogmas.
Decent response.

Do you think that someone can advocate for an ethnostate without being racist or hateful?
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londonmyst
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(Original post by jcx_)
Decent response.

Do you think that someone can advocate for an ethnostate without being racist or hateful?
I'm going by the definition of racism as race hate.
It is possible but will hinge upon the motivations and tactics for advocating an ethnostate.
Some countries like Japan & North Korea have very strict immigration laws and will only grant citizenship based upon paternal descent or ancestral bloodlines.
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Cryoraptor
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In theory, possibly but presuming an ethnostate is presuming supremacy of your ethnicity and presuming something wrong with other ethnic groups, no?
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username4998248
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(Original post by Cryoraptor)
In theory, possibly but presuming an ethnostate is presuming supremacy of your ethnicity and presuming something wrong with other ethnic groups, no?
Not always, imo.

I think someone can be an ethnonationalist in the sense that they are a "white" nationalist for "white" countries and a "black" nationalist for "black" countries - so they don't believe any race/ethnicity to be superior, but have an ideal view of how countries should be run.
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Cryoraptor
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(Original post by jcx_)
Not always, imo.

I think someone can be an ethnonationalist in the sense that they are a "white" nationalist for "white" countries and a "black" nationalist for "black" countries - so they don't believe any race/ethnicity to be superior, but have an ideal view of how countries should be run.
Fair enough
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Alesha1991
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(Original post by londonmyst)
I'm going by the definition of racism as race hate.
It is possible but will hinge upon the motivations and tactics for advocating an ethnostate.
Some countries like Japan & North Korea have very strict immigration laws and will only grant citizenship based upon paternal descent or ancestral bloodlines.
This.
I think most of the people who advocate the idea of ethnic nationalism are basically racists looking to make their views seem more respectable. People who go on about 'white nationalism' for example tend to be thinly disguised neo Nazis, white supremacists etc, a lot of black nationalists also have some very dubious views. I can think of a few circumstances where an ethnically based state can be justified though, a good current example would be the Kurdish liberation movement. Also Israel, yes I know there's people within Israel who use nationalism to justify racist views/ policies but I support the idea of a Jewish state and think a lot of the criticism of Israel is way out of proportion when you consider the surrounding countries have much worse human rights records.
I've heard about how strict the immigration rules are in Japan. One of my friends has spent time in Japan and was talking about how she'd researched the possibility of getting permanent residency and how difficult it was. I doubt immigration's much of an issue in North Korea though, I think it's more a place people want to get out of. Well, there might be a few delusional people who like the idea of living under hardline communism and see NK as some sort of utopia. I think they'd change their minds very quickly if they actually experienced it for real though.
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Cryoraptor
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(Original post by Alesha1991)
This.
I think most of the people who advocate the idea of ethnic nationalism are basically racists looking to make their views seem more respectable. People who go on about 'white nationalism' for example tend to be thinly disguised neo Nazis, white supremacists etc, a lot of black nationalists also have some very dubious views. I can think of a few circumstances where an ethnically based state can be justified though, a good current example would be the Kurdish liberation movement. Also Israel, yes I know there's people within Israel who use nationalism to justify racist views/ policies but I support the idea of a Jewish state and think a lot of the criticism of Israel is way out of proportion when you consider the surrounding countries have much worse human rights records.
I've heard about how strict the immigration rules are in Japan. One of my friends has spent time in Japan and was talking about how she'd researched the possibility of getting permanent residency and how difficult it was. I doubt immigration's much of an issue in North Korea though, I think it's more a place people want to get out of. Well, there might be a few delusional people who like the idea of living under hardline communism and see NK as some sort of utopia. I think they'd change their minds very quickly if they actually experienced it for real though.
Proponents of ethnic nationalism involving ethnostates are usually racists, I would agree with that. However, white nationalism is 'a type of nationalism or pan-nationalism which espouses the belief that white people are a race and seeks to develop and maintain a white racial and national identity'. There is nothing inherently racist about that, just the belief that white people should have an identity. Of course, this goes hand in hand with racism all the time, but I wouldn't say all or most white nationalists are racists, and vice versa for black nationalists.

Kurdistan is very understandable: an extensive ethnic group who want to govern themselves. Sounds pretty reasonable.

I would also agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with Israel or the ideas behind it. I think Israel falls victim to it's geography: it is surrounded by Islamic countries that historically don't really like Jews. The Europeans and America did not really take the religious background of most inhabitants of the Middle East into consideration before deciding to give the holy city of Jerusalem to the Jews. I obviously don't agree with it but you can kind of see why Israel might not be seen in the best light by inhabitants of surrounding countries, especially given the historical context.
Ultimately, the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine can only be won by one side. Neither side is going to agree to anything. Supporters of Israel will tell you that the Palestinians are killing Israelis, while supporters of Palestine like that ******** George Galloway will tell you it's the Israelis killing Palestinians. In reality, both sides are killing each other on a regular basis. Eventually, Israel will prevail or the US will finally back down, withdraw it's support from Israel and it will get destroyed by the surrounding countries. If Palestine prevails and takes over Israel, that's not going to be brilliant news for Israeli Jews, and if Israel wins, that will be... not bad news for Palestinians, since Israel doesn't really care about religion or ethnicity (hell, it's basically USA 2.0 for Jews). On the other hand, Palestine and the surrounding Islamic nations don't want much to do with Jews, which might lead to some possible human rights abuses.

Anyway, moving on from that, that's a whole other can of worms.

Immigration control is very strict in Japan and historically has been because it doesn't want much foreign intervention in it's internal affairs. I don't think the average Japanese person is particularly racist, but in terms of the society, it's probably not one you want to really move into when you're used to a Western style of life. Very serious, hard-working people, as are most East Asian societies. Male suicide is at one of the highest rates in the world in Japan due to the culture and societal pressure of this aspect. Men literally work themselves to death over there.

As for North Korea, well, yeah, I don't even need to explain that one.

Anyway, it's 2AM for me now, and I'm going round a mate's house tomorrow so I'll leave it there. Good discussion
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lewis6969
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Coming from a mixed race guy, I am a fan of ethno nationalism. I wouldnt want japan to be the land of jamaican people or jamaica to be the land of british people. If i wanted to visit france, i'd expect and hope to see ethnically french people, not arabs haha. A british country should be predominantly british people in the same way that nigeria should be predominantly nigerian people. Absolutely nothing racist about it but i can see how people could twist it for their own racist agendas.
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Just my opinion
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Funny enough I only heard the term a few days ago on a Faith Goldy video interviewing George Hutchinson of Students for Western Civilization, describing his experience while studying psychology and political science at York university Toronto.

https://youtu.be/PrdTCRiCspI
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Just my opinion
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(Original post by lewis6969)
Coming from a mixed race guy, I am a fan of ethno nationalism. I wouldnt want japan to be the land of jamaican people or jamaica to be the land of british people. If i wanted to visit france, i'd expect and hope to see ethnically french people, not arabs haha. A british country should be predominantly british people in the same way that nigeria should be predominantly nigerian people. Absolutely nothing racist about it but i can see how people could twist it for their own racist agendas.
Race baiting is extremely popular.😕
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Cryoraptor
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(Original post by lewis6969)
Coming from a mixed race guy, I am a fan of ethno nationalism. I wouldnt want japan to be the land of jamaican people or jamaica to be the land of british people. If i wanted to visit france, i'd expect and hope to see ethnically french people, not arabs haha. A british country should be predominantly british people in the same way that nigeria should be predominantly nigerian people. Absolutely nothing racist about it but i can see how people could twist it for their own racist agendas.
I see what you're saying, and I would expect the same. Pure ethnonationalism simply means you believe your ethnicity should have an identity, which makes sense. The only problem is that a lot of the time, ethnonationalism goes hand in hand with advocacy of an ethnostate, which is basically the purest form of racism. You could argue that an ethnostate isn't technically racist on their own, but why else would you want to keep other ethnic groups out if you didn't think there was something wrong with them?
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lewis6969
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(Original post by Cryoraptor)
I see what you're saying, and I would expect the same. Pure ethnonationalism simply means you believe your ethnicity should have an identity, which makes sense. The only problem is that a lot of the time, ethnonationalism goes hand in hand with advocacy of an ethnostate, which is basically the purest form of racism. You could argue that an ethnostate isn't technically racist on their own, but why else would you want to keep other ethnic groups out if you didn't think there was something wrong with them?
there are ways around it. ethnic minorities could be encouraged to not breed by being offered money if they dont have kids in the country. is an ethnostate just a country with 100% just one ethnicity? like immigrants arent allowed whatsoever?
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Cryoraptor
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(Original post by lewis6969)
there are ways around it. ethnic minorities could be encouraged to not breed by being offered money if they dont have kids in the country. is an ethnostate just a country with 100% just one ethnicity? like immigrants arent allowed whatsoever?
Yes, an ethnostate is a state for one ethnicity.

The way you talk about ethnic minorities makes them sound like animals. 'Offering money if they don't have kids' sounds like something that would be in a certain group of laws named after the German city of Nuremberg. Not sure why someone who has partial background in a minority would ever support something like that
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lewis6969
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(Original post by Cryoraptor)
Yes, an ethnostate is a state for one ethnicity.

The way you talk about ethnic minorities makes them sound like animals. 'Offering money if they don't have kids' sounds like something that would be in a certain group of laws named after the German city of Nuremberg. Not sure why someone who has partial background in a minority would ever support something like that
how does that sound animalistic or whatever. theyre getting paid to not have kids but they're still able to have kids if they want? wouldnt bother me tbh
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username4998248
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(Original post by Cryoraptor)
I see what you're saying, and I would expect the same. Pure ethnonationalism simply means you believe your ethnicity should have an identity, which makes sense. The only problem is that a lot of the time, ethnonationalism goes hand in hand with advocacy of an ethnostate, which is basically the purest form of racism. You could argue that an ethnostate isn't technically racist on their own, but why else would you want to keep other ethnic groups out if you didn't think there was something wrong with them?
I don't think that advocating for an ethnostate is inherently racist. As I said somewhere above, I reckon someone can be both a "white" and a "black" nationalist at the same time - so could argue that every ethnicity needs an ethnostate. Imo it is not racist or hateful to believe that ethnic groups need their own identity and their own countries in which that identity can thrive.

I'm not entirely sure that multiculturalism works, and it's my view that different cultures are at least somewhat a result of different races/ethnicities. I'm not proposing the idea that an ethnostate will solve all of our current societal problems, however it's easy to see why some people would think that - and I don't believe it to be a racist proposal either.
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josh75
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(Original post by jcx_)
Discuss.
Its definitely racist as it is centered around racial collectivism. But it is not necessarily hateful as you can just simply believe races cant coexist in the same society, or even go so far as to believe some are inferior but not necessarily harbor any hatred towards them. I look at Richard Spencer as an example he doesn't seem to harbor any malicious hate towards other races, he just doesn't believe in a multi racial society.
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josh75
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(Original post by jcx_)
I don't think that advocating for an ethnostate is inherently racist. As I said somewhere above, I reckon someone can be both a "white" and a "black" nationalist at the same time - so could argue that every ethnicity needs an ethnostate. Imo it is not racist or hateful to believe that ethnic groups need their own identity and their own countries in which that identity can thrive.

I'm not entirely sure that multiculturalism works, and it's my view that different cultures are at least somewhat a result of different races/ethnicities. I'm not proposing the idea that an ethnostate will solve all of our current societal problems, however it's easy to see why some people would think that - and I don't believe it to be a racist proposal either.
An ethno state is racist by definition as you are ascribing social traits to races whole race collectively.
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lewis6969
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(Original post by josh75)
An ethno state is racist by definition as you are ascribing social traits to races whole race collectively.
im not an advocate for an ethnostate but japan is a good example of what would be ideal. any ethnicity can live there but its mostly japanese people there
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