Have we left (or stayed) yet? Watch

ByEeek
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Thatcher did nothing but harm and was a major player in involving in the right wing EU!

Again what you suggest is a soft brexit, that's absolutely fine. We hand this soft brexit agreed, CU,SM and a safety net CU to fall into of negotiations break down. As I correctly stated, Parliamentarians rejected it? So I'll ask again, how can the establishment be representing your views brilliantly? And how do you link that with democracy only working if it supports your view?
Who is the establishment for a start? Boris Johnson? Jacob Reece-Mogg? Our elected MPs?

Parliament is hung. The country is hung. The vote was marginal at best. Yes - we need to leave, but how is the big question and no one can decide. My prediction for the coming election is another hung parliament. Neither of us are going to get what we actually want. But I think we need to stop this idea that counteracting Brexit is some sort of conspiracy of them against us. It really isn't. It boils down to simple mathematics of how our democratically elected parliament is formed.
Last edited by ByEeek; 2 weeks ago
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Quady
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#22
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#22
Three hours to freedom!
From the EU at least. Real freedom from 'the union' to come.
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GCSE_beginner
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Quady)
Three hours to freedom!
From the EU at least. Real freedom from 'the union' to come.
I Know this hasn't got anything to do with this but just looked at your profile and you've been here since 2008?! No wonder you're considered TSR royalty :crown:
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Napp
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The establishment dont want us to come out, so we haven't
considering a fair whack of the establishment are frothing Brexiteers - see almost everyone fielded by the Tories and Brexit party - this would seem to be somewhat wide of the mark?
(Original post by Uori32qu)
Your view is the minority's view...
Your maths seems to be a bit skewy given a significant proportion of the electorate (never mind the populations) have not expressed an opinion one way or the other.
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Uori32qu
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Napp)
Your maths seems to be a bit skewy given a significant proportion of the electorate (never mind the populations) have not expressed an opinion one way or the other.
If someone can't be bothered to vote/ doesn't have an opinion/isn't able to vote then they aren't involved in the matter at all. And anyway, the referendum had a higher turnout than all elections since 1992.
By your measure then the remainers are an even smaller minority, why should we be listening to them?

EDIT: since turnout is even lower in elections, should we simply forgo democracy all together? Not have a voted in government because it's only voted in by people who can vote and have an opinion?
Last edited by Uori32qu; 2 weeks ago
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Napp
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Uori32qu)
If someone can't be bothered to vote/ doesn't have an opinion/isn't able to vote then they aren't involved in the matter at all.
Alas that is but your opinion and not a fact.
And anyway, the referendum had a higher turnout than all elections since 1992.
Seeing as this wasnt an election what is your point?
By your measure then the remainers are an even smaller minority, why should we be listening to them?
Pray tell how you lept to this rather mirthful conclusion?
At any rate, to indulge your ignorance, i'd have thought this was rather a case of open your eyes? You lot treating the remain voters as if they didnt exist (which is what youve been doing) has resulted in, according to you lot, brexit being frustrated at every turn. Anyone with half a brain could have predicated that if you treat half the voters like **** and ignore them they will push back, which is exactly what is happening. What was that rather apt quote from Churchill about magnanimity in victory? something that has manifestly not been shown.
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Uori32qu
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Napp)
Alas that is but your opinion and not a fact.

Seeing as this wasnt an election what is your point?

Pray tell how you lept to this rather mirthful conclusion?
At any rate, to indulge your ignorance, i'd have thought this was rather a case of open your eyes? You lot treating the remain voters as if they didnt exist (which is what youve been doing) has resulted in, according to you lot, brexit being frustrated at every turn. Anyone with half a brain could have predicated that if you treat half the voters like **** and ignore them they will push back, which is exactly what is happening. What was that rather apt quote from Churchill about magnanimity in victory? something that has manifestly not been shown.
If we don't leave, then what is the point of referendums? What is the point of voting for anything if the result doesn't mean anything?
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Burton Bridge
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#28
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#28
(Original post by ByEeek)
Who is the establishment for a start? Boris Johnson? Jacob Reece-Mogg? Our elected MPs?

Parliament is hung. The country is hung. The vote was marginal at best. Yes - we need to leave, but how is the big question and no one can decide. My prediction for the coming election is another hung parliament. Neither of us are going to get what we actually want. But I think we need to stop this idea that counteracting Brexit is some sort of conspiracy of them against us. It really isn't. It boils down to simple mathematics of how our democratically elected parliament is formed.
Mmm well, what do you think the establishment is? After all you was the one who claimed The establishment are representing my views brilliantly, therefore you must have an idea.

I believe the establishment is made up of various people, the monarchy, elites such as lords/ peers judges and such people. I would certainly add Jacob Rees Mogg into that group, to answer you're question.

Now regarding you're next point, that is fatally flawed I'll explain. The idea that counteracting Brexit is some sort of conspiracy of them against us, is born out of the reality that "they allowed" the devolution of their power, and then they promised to honor that promises entwined in both parliaments. This means It really is! They promised somthing they lied to get elected and then acted against the nation interst in some cases.

Parliament is formed by the electorate selecting what polices they wish to happen, that's the hard reality of the situation. They was elected to deliver brexit and they have done everything to block it.
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Napp
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Uori32qu)
If we don't leave, then what is the point of referendums? What is the point of voting for anything if the result doesn't mean anything?
In the British system there shouldnt be referendums, theyre antithetical to our system of representative democracy.
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I believe the establishment is made up of various people, the monarchy, elites such as lords/ peers judges and such people. I would certainly add Jacob Rees Mogg into that group, to answer you're question.
Given that the 'elite' is a slur these days what have our sovereign, lords and judges done to elicit your wrath?
. This means It really is! They promised somthing they lied to get elected and then acted against the nation interst in some cases.
Thats what politicians have always done and will always do...
As for 'the national interest' what exactly do you mean by that? Given that the general national interest has never been defined as what a part of the population want but as being what is best for the UK as a whole.
Parliament is formed by the electorate selecting what polices they wish to happen, that's the hard reality of the situation. They was elected to deliver brexit and they have done everything to block it.
Surely 'the electorate' should know by now that campaign promises mean nothing...
As for all the MPs being elected to execute Brexit we both know that is not how our system works, god be thankful for that. We are a representative parliamentary democracy that does not entail the MPs slavishly deferring to the electorate..
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ByEeek
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Mmm well, what do you think the establishment is? After all you was the one who claimed The establishment are representing my views brilliantly, therefore you must have an idea.

I believe the establishment is made up of various people, the monarchy, elites such as lords/ peers judges and such people. I would certainly add Jacob Rees Mogg into that group, to answer you're question.

Now regarding you're next point, that is fatally flawed I'll explain. The idea that counteracting Brexit is some sort of conspiracy of them against us, is born out of the reality that "they allowed" the devolution of their power, and then they promised to honor that promises entwined in both parliaments. This means It really is! They promised somthing they lied to get elected and then acted against the nation interst in some cases.

Parliament is formed by the electorate selecting what polices they wish to happen, that's the hard reality of the situation. They was elected to deliver brexit and they have done everything to block it.
Agreed with your assessment of the establishment.

However, what you fail to acknowledge is that the referendum didn't mean opposition voices would stand back and give freedom for the leave camp to do what they want.

I accept we are to leave. The debate centres around how. And I, like huge swaites of the country do not want a hard Brexit. It would be a disaster.

Yet we haveca PM who to his credit has a new (worse) deal but then wanted to steam roll it through parliament in 3 days when most of the significant laws in our land take significantly longer.

My worry is that the Brexit camp are so desperate to leave by any measure we end up taking decisions we later regret. Can you give me an example in life where quick, uninformed, unchallenged, life changing decisions come good?
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