PBL or traditional teaching Watch

cheaptrick
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What are the advantages nad the disadvantages of PBL and traditional teaching?

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michaela_banana
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PBL: Independant learning, group work a good motivator, encourages social networking with peers, "in context"
Traditional: Direct and often more concise way of learning, have difficult concepts carefully explained, only learn what you need to know.

Basically, they're both great ways of learning, especially in first year, but almost everywhere has some incorporation of both nowadays.
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arod
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If you look at the top medical schools globally, most have all switched to PBL - e.g. Harvard etc. They have been running lots of surverys/analysis of the graduates of the older traditional type programs vs the PBL and the PBLs tended to generate better doctors, ones that didn't rely on rote learning, and had better patient skills
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Beska
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On a similar note, is there a list of all the UK medical schools and if they're PBL, traditional or a mix (and what percentage each way)?

I think this'll be a great addition to the wiki.
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Elles
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(Original post by arod)
If you look at the top medical schools globally, most have all switched to PBL - e.g. Harvard etc. They have been running lots of surverys/analysis of the graduates of the older traditional type programs vs the PBL and the PBLs tended to generate better doctors, ones that didn't rely on rote learning, and had better patient skills
- How many of your 'top global medical schools', like Harvard, are graduate entry courses?

- Which surveys/analysis of graduates are you referring to?
The ones I've come across again seem to be very graduate entry biased in course or country...
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AEH
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You know Elles, I hadn't thought of that till you mentioned it. Well, hadn't made the link anyway. I often get the impression Barts would go all-graduate if it could, maybe it is only a matter of five years or so.

Trying to compare PBL and lectures is like comparing a hammer and a screwdriver, they're different tools for different jobs. The question to the prefreshers is which do you think you'll need more of? To me, lectures are good for covering the extremely complicated ideas, particularly when explained by someone who knows what they're talking about and can deliver it well. But, they are difficult to sit through in long stints (Meaning you have to constantly revisit the topics you slept through) and a bad lecture is utterly hopeless.

PBL, when done well, almost always commits a topic to memory better than a lecture and promotes a better understanding of what's going on rather than the committing of unconnected facts to your brain. It also requires a discipline to do, which carries through into clinical years when you'll have to do your own learning anyway in a very similar format. The downsides are if you have a tutor or group that you don't work well with, it can be extremely exhausting and disheartening.
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Gizmo!
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i fink the problem is we see fings as classifiations of pbl or traditional for instance.

instead of looking at the course content, lurking into a lecture and seeing it for ourselves to discover if it suits us.
goodness, individual pbl and lecture sessions vary considerably, and i've been in lectures that are more pbl than pbl sessions, and pbl sessions that are more like lectures than anyfing else.

look at what attracts you in a sessions afore you classify it, macca.
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arod
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(Original post by Elles)
- How many of your 'top global medical schools', like Harvard, are graduate entry courses?

- Which surveys/analysis of graduates are you referring to?
The ones I've come across again seem to be very graduate entry biased in course or country...
Hi
All medical schools in North America are not exactly graduate entry, but the majority of students do enter with an undergraduate degree (which are 4 yrs long) and/or are mature students. Entry into medical schools in North America (depending on the school) require a min. of 2 or 3 yrs of undergraduate training usually in a pre-med science/physiology based program which is all lecture based.

The first medical school to experiment with PBL was McMaster Medical school which started the program 30 years ago. They have been keeping track of the graduates from the PBL and non-PBL programs to try to assess the difference in the quality of the education and the type of medic produced. Based on these results a number of schools have now switched to PBL or a combination of traditional/PBL. The PBL students seem to be ones who are the most worried about passing their licensing exams at the end of medical school since they have not had the typical evaluation.
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Jamie
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(Original post by arod)
If you look at the top medical schools globally, most have all switched to PBL - e.g. Harvard etc. They have been running lots of surverys/analysis of the graduates of the older traditional type programs vs the PBL and the PBLs tended to generate better doctors, ones that didn't rely on rote learning, and had better patient skills
Rubbish.

You cannot look at a PBL done in harvard and compare that with the UK.
And how do they judge which doctors are better? communication skills? income? ability to pass post graduate exams?

A loaded question really, being as i know for a fact that doctors from cambridge and oxford - two unis that are near entirely pbl free (some token effort) have by far the best stats when it comes to passing the MRCS and MRCP exams. And i'm not talking a couple of percentage points here. I'm talking 90% versus 60% type stuff.

In my opinion PBL is a leveller. In traditional didactic teaching the good student excel, and the less good ones are more likely to flunk. They are more likely to disengage and can easier hide in the shadows.
In PBL the good students get dragged down by the cruddy ones. Whether its as a result of this or not, but in my experience a LOT of PBL trained medics/doctors are coniving back stabbers when it comes to anything that can put them ahead CV wise.
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jjkkll
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(Original post by ekalB)
Is it basically almost modern ones do PBL and older ones do Traditional?
Which universities do which?
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=630612 LOOK there!!
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AEH
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What's PBL delivery got to do with the method of evaluation? There's no particular reason to not have exactly the same examination program to PBL teaching as lectures.

Oh sod it, what am I doing? I'm trying to argue PBL as an exclusive method of teaching, which is just patent nonsense. Same as lectures and reading from books. None of them can do the job in full, they can all be done fantastically or terribly and as far as I'm concerned they all have a role if you not such a fundamentalist twerp.
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Jamie
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(Original post by AEH)
What's PBL delivery got to do with the method of evaluation? There's no particular reason to not have exactly the same examination program to PBL teaching as lectures.
Erm well it seems patently obvious to me. Arod said "They have been running lots of surverys/analysis of the graduates of the older traditional type programs vs the PBL and the PBLs tended to generate better doctors, ones that didn't rely on rote learning, and had better patient skills ".

He is saying that PBL has been proven to make better doctors. It thus seems rather reasonable to query by what assessment do they deem these doctors better.

It also seems reasonable to point out the facts of the matter - those who graduate from traditional medical schools (which are rarely rated the top medical schools by the league tables) have statistically better odds of passing the major post graduate exams first time. By a long way.

(Original post by AEH)
Oh sod it, what am I doing? I'm trying to argue PBL as an exclusive method of teaching, which is just patent nonsense. Same as lectures and reading from books. None of them can do the job in full, they can all be done fantastically or terribly and as far as I'm concerned they all have a role if you not such a fundamentalist twerp.
Fundamentalist? Such strong language. I simply found the whole PBL process tiresome and irksome. But thats me. I'm the sort of person who can sit in a lecture, half pay attention and get all the main concepts straight away. Lucky olde me.

But I do believe it or not agree with you - horses for courses. Some people hate PBL, some people hate traditional.

But what I do object to - and which the above is an objection to is this notion that some people band about that PBL makes better doctors. It does not. It will certainly appear to improve the doctor output in a uni that had a badly run traditional system - sure, you overhaul the med ed to meet the newest requirements and bam all of a sudden you look like your system is unbeatable.

But the fact is that traditional didactic teaching still produces doctors who find it easier to pass their postgraduates exams, progress up the ranks faster and who have not been shown in the UK to be any the worse for their teaching method - whether in knowledge or in communication skills.
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AEH
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I agree with you Jamie, with one slight alteration. I don't think traditional teaching makes better doctors anymore than newer methods. I personally think its down to the breadth and depth of experience and knowledge that the individual student seeks to gain. That's why I advocate having PBLs around, because they're another tool on the table with which to do that. There's knowledge and skills I've got from PBL which I haven't got from anywhere else, but then exactly the same goes for lectures, labs and clinical demonstrations.

Its a bit of an old cliche, but it does depend very much on the student. There's a story told by one of our old school deans about a complaint a student made about a clinical placement. They said the ward had no opportunity, didn't sort out any experience for him and generally left him in the corner till it was time to go home. This came up on an end of year review committee and they decided to develop a best-practice guide for wards based on those with the best student reports. When they picked out a ward from the 'good review' pile, it turned out to be another student reviewing exactly the same place.

Yes, its just an anecdote, bad systems will make it harder for all students and schools should still try to make the best education programs they can. But I think it demonstrates a certain point pretty well.
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jjkkll
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(Original post by AEH)
I agree with you Jamie, with one slight alteration. I don't think traditional teaching makes better doctors anymore than newer methods. I personally think its down to the breadth and depth of experience and knowledge that the individual student seeks to gain. That's why I advocate having PBLs around, because they're another tool on the table with which to do that. There's knowledge and skills I've got from PBL which I haven't got from anywhere else, but then exactly the same goes for lectures, labs and clinical demonstrations.

Its a bit of an old cliche, but it does depend very much on the student. There's a story told by one of our old school deans about a complaint a student made about a clinical placement. They said the ward had no opportunity, didn't sort out any experience for him and generally left him in the corner till it was time to go home. This came up on an end of year review committee and they decided to develop a best-practice guide for wards based on those with the best student reports. When they picked out a ward from the 'good review' pile, it turned out to be another student reviewing exactly the same place.

Yes, its just an anecdote, bad systems will make it harder for all students and schools should still try to make the best education programs they can. But I think it demonstrates a certain point pretty well.

agreed, and a mix of teaching styles should help all sudents learn better to produce competant doctors.

all the teaching methods will prove beneficial to most students

Systems-Based
PBL
Traditional
Intergrated.

schools with a good mix of them all should be better for the majority of students.
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m197
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this is what i have always expected PBL to be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un4ULrgVYMY

and this is my perception of lectures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYfIiYLA5QA

take you pick
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ThisLittlePiggy
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(Original post by malaz_197)
this is what i have always expected PBL to be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un4ULrgVYMY

and this is my perception of lectures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYfIiYLA5QA

take you pick
That first one was pretty brilliant stuff. "I don't need to study. I'm Asian"
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crazygirl4521
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(Original post by ThisLittlePiggy)
That first one was pretty brilliant stuff. "I don't need to study. I'm Asian"
LOL that was a really funy line, enjoyed the video.
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ThisLittlePiggy
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BTW those stereotypes are pretty much spot on as well.
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