Want Brexit but going to vote Labour Watch

LaPregunta
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#61
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#61
(Original post by AnxiousAtypical)
I call them ‘Cuckservatives’ because they are always cucking to migrants and Islam
That's a good one, I have no other choice but to give you rep
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the bear
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#62
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#62
(Original post by QE2)
Who do I sue if I don't get Stalin. Don't want to waste my vote.
*whom

vote Corbin, get Stalin
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LaPregunta
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#63
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#63
(Original post by adam271)
I'm voting for Corbyn.
I want Brexit done but I care about social issues more.

There is a lot I disagree with him on but on big issues he is right.

I want the trains nationalised.
I want more affordable housing
I want lower tution fees.

I look at the conservative side and they keep spouting the phrase Benjamin Disraeli coined "one nation conservativism" they have been doing it since David Cameron.
But it's not true the gap between the rich and the poor keeps growing. I don't think anyone believes one nation or big society anymore.

So I look at the conservative manifesto and the only thing I get is Brexit.
All the commitments they are making are also just aimed at reversing the austerity policies they implemented.

I'm a pretty open minded person but do the conservative party offer anything other than Brexit?
Also I am worried they will have free reign to trash workers rights if they get a majority.
(Original post by Kitten in boots)
The one nation conservatism is just the over-bearing paternalistic conservatism that dominates Tory thinking. The average person is an idiot and needs to be told how to think and how to behave by the establishment. We can see this in Rees-Mogg's recent comments.

It is why I'd never vote Conservative, irrespective of Brexit.
You Sir, are a partisan fool. £400billion proposed borrowin and we are already £1.8billion(circa) in debt.

Corbyn hates Britian (supports the IRA, signin over Gibraltar and The Falklands Islands) and Jews (Hamas are 'our friends'). But feel free to support idealistic policies which will ruin what is left of this country.
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LiberOfLondon
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#64
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#64
(Original post by QE2)
You voted, and still support, Brexit, under any circumstances.
You want the Tory government of Johnson and Mogg in power.
QED.
Because he accepts that they are the only ones who can deliver Brexit!

Go onto the ”should billionaires exist” thread and you will notice that he's supporting a left-wing position.
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QE2
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#65
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#65
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
You may be misunderstanding what Brexit is, and certainly are unaware of what Johnson did in london.

Surrorting brexit does not mean I am right wing at all, dennis skinner voted brexit, is he right wing too? Non of that shows, where I said I want workers rights scrapped or where I said we would be better off without a welfare state.

So show me where I said such things or apologies for lying or at maybe getting confused.
Brexit+Hard Right Tory Gov't= eroding workers' rights.
You have said yourself that one of the main benefits of Brexit will be the ability for UK manufacturers to produce goods to a lower standard than currently. These will obviously command a lower price (if there is a market at all) as we will be competing with the Chinas and Indias, so where do you think employers will make the necessary saving? Directors' bonuses? Shareholder dividends? Wake up and smell the bullshjt..

Surrorting brexit does not mean I am right wing at all
Not necessarily, but supporting the Tories does.
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QE2
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#66
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#66
(Original post by the bear)
*whom

vote Corbin, get Stalin
Indeed, inexcusable error. But can you guarantee that I will get Stalin if I vote Corbyn? And what avenues are open to me for redress if I am left disappointed?
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QE2
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#67
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#67
(Original post by LaPregunta)
You Sir, are a partisan fool. £400billion proposed borrowin and we are already £1.8billion(circa) in debt.
Wrong. It is a proposed £400bn targeted spend, over 10 years, not borrowing - which only takes us off the bottom of national infrastructure and social spending table. The Tories are also proposing increased borrowing. The national debt is actually £1.8 trillion.

Corbyn hates Britian (supports the IRA, signin over Gibraltar and The Falklands Islands) and Jews (Hamas are 'our friends'). But feel free to support idealistic policies which will ruin what is left of this country.
Ah, I see I have fallen foul of Poe's Law. Had me going for a bit there. Well done!
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QE2
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#68
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#68
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Because he accepts that they are the only ones who can deliver Brexit!

Go onto the ”should billionaires exist” thread and you will notice that he's supporting a left-wing position.
Being happy to instal a hard-right Tory government just to ensure what is essentially a right-wing wet-dream is the behaviour of someone with right-wing sympathies. There is no argument for Brexit that benefits the working, or even middle class. No genuine socialist would ever willingly enable a Tory government led by the likes of Mogg & Johnson, even if it did mean something or other about immigrants.
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Burton Bridge
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#69
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#69
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Because he accepts that they are the only ones who can deliver Brexit!

Go onto the ”should billionaires exist” thread and you will notice that he's supporting a left-wing position.
Least someone can read and comprehend, thanks
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LaPregunta
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#70
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#70
(Original post by QE2)
Wrong. It is a proposed £400bn targeted spend, over 10 years, not borrowing - which only takes us off the bottom of national infrastructure and social spending table. The Tories are also proposing increased borrowing. The national debt is actually £1.8 trillion.


Ah, I see I have fallen foul of Poe's Law. Had me going for a bit there. Well done!
I did not err in my recital of the figures, this was a deliberate mistake as to convey my point better.

And indeed it may be so that you do not care for the country you live in, why would you? So it is perfectly reasonable for someone like you to support Labour. Vote Labour, it is pretty simple.
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adam271
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#71
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#71
(Original post by LaPregunta)
You Sir, are a partisan fool. £400billion proposed borrowin and we are already £1.8billion(circa) in debt.

Corbyn hates Britian (supports the IRA, signin over Gibraltar and The Falklands Islands) and Jews (Hamas are 'our friends'. But feel free to support idealistic policies which will ruin what is left of this country.
How am I partisan? I've never voted labour in my life.
I've voted lib Dems and conservative.

As for your other comments.
IRA do not care. It's also a lie, but lets not get into the IRA lol.
His views on Palestine . I am for a 2 state solution but I do not care. It's not a big enough deal for me to sway my vote.


I'm voting for purely for selfish pragmatic reasons.
I'm not a nationalist or patriotic. I just see that the social policies are going to directly benefit me.

I find it staggering that students are completely ruling out voting for Corbyn.

Regardless of his views you will be in 30k less debt.
You guys must be super proud to be British to rather be in that much debt just so you can get Brexit done.


Don't get me wrong I want Brexit done but if it's a choice between free tution fees and getting Brexit done there is no choice.
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LaPregunta
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#72
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#72
(Original post by adam271)
How am I partisan? I've never voted labour in my life.
I've voted lib Dems and conservative.

As for your other comments.
IRA do not care. It's also a lie, but lets not get into the IRA lol.
His views on Palestine . I am for a 2 state solution but I do not care. It's not a big enough deal for me to sway my vote.


I'm voting for purely for selfish pragmatic reasons.
I'm not a nationalist or patriotic. I just see that the social policies are going to directly benefit me.

I find it staggering that students are completely ruling out voting for Corbyn.

Regardless of his views you will be in 30k less debt.
You guys must be super proud to be British to rather be in that much debt just so you can get Brexit done.


Don't get me wrong I want Brexit done but if it's a choice between free tution fees and getting Brexit done there is no choice.
A partisan is a a firm adherent to a party or cause (or belief). I used it in the context of cause. Do not feel sad, it was expected that you would defeated me not.

And as you care for your country none, vote Labour, it's very simple.
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Burton Bridge
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#73
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#73
(Original post by LaPregunta)
A partisan is a a firm adherent to a party or cause (or belief). I used it in the context of cause. Do not feel sad, it was expected that you would defeated me not.

And as you care for your country none, vote Labour, it's very simple.
Are you saying those who disagree with me, don't care for their country?
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DJKL
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#74
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#74
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
You may be misunderstanding what Brexit is, and certainly are unaware of what Johnson did in london.

Surrorting brexit does not mean I am right wing at all, dennis skinner voted brexit, is he right wing too? Non of that shows, where I said I want workers rights scrapped or where I said we would be better off without a welfare state.

So show me where I said such things or apologies for lying or at maybe getting confused.
I agree it does not make you right wing but it maybe makes you a tad too trusting that the outcomes you seek will be served by letting some of the more right wing Conservative wolves loose to roam at will. Once you unleash them not so sure you will get them muzzled again without a lot of the population getting badly bitten, and history tends not to look favourably on those that enable.

When all the Brexit parts and factions finally get Brexit you are going to have a bus with half a dozen drivers- are you sure it will motor in the direction you seek? Remember trade deals cannot be modified just by one side, either both agree or the deal falls ,so if you let the ERG and their ilk govern and they say sign up an Atlantic trade treaty then even if the Left gets to power later (It actually looks pretty unlikely that a non moderate Labour leader can win an overall majority in the foreseeable future) your hands may be tied, the die will be cast.

Buyer regret springs to mind for a lot of those from the left supporting Brexit but don't say you were not warned by those of us somewhat more moderate.
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Burton Bridge
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#75
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#75
(Original post by QE2)
Brexit+Hard Right Tory Gov't= eroding workers' rights.
You have said yourself that one of the main benefits of Brexit will be the ability for UK manufacturers to produce goods to a lower standard than currently. These will obviously command a lower price (if there is a market at all) as we will be competing with the Chinas and Indias, so where do you think employers will make the necessary saving? Directors' bonuses? Shareholder dividends? Wake up and smell the bullshjt..


Not necessarily, but supporting the Tories does.
You are taking my points across various threads out of context. Being able to manufacture outside of EU guidelines does not in any logical persons mind link with eroding workers rights.

I dont see the spending pledges the tories are making linking with turning us into a china or India, however I do agree with you that certain tories care nil for the poor, IDS is one such brexiteer.

The thing you miss is I'm voting Tory for democracy not for their social policies. If labour had back May's deal, I'd be voting labour.
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Burton Bridge
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#76
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#76
(Original post by DJKL)
I agree it does not make you right wing but it maybe makes you a tad too trusting that the outcomes you seek will be served by letting some of the more right wing Conservative wolves loose to roam at will. Once you unleash them not so sure you will get them muzzled again without a lot of the population getting badly bitten, and history tends not to look favourably on those that enable.

When all the Brexit parts and factions finally get Brexit you are going to have a bus with half a dozen drivers- are you sure it will motor in the direction you seek? Remember trade deals cannot be modified just by one side, either both agree or the deal falls ,so if you let the ERG and their ilk govern and they say sign up an Atlantic trade treaty then even if the Left gets to power later (It actually looks pretty unlikely that a non moderate Labour leader can win an overall majority in the foreseeable future) your hands may be tied, the die will be cast.

Buyer regret springs to mind for a lot of those from the left supporting Brexit but don't say you were not warned by those of us somewhat more moderate.
I hear you, but I think that is so defeatist. Are we really saying this is the best we can do, manufacture dead maybe 10/15 years left? And unelected eurocrats easing the pain of the conservatives, then the tories taking the credit for said polices and the left just becoming a forever nothing?

I agree you will be more moderate than me, I'm anti royal, pro nationalisation, pro high taxation, pro unions, pro social housing you know the score. I know the tories will provide non of this for me, however should people not get what they vote for.

I think blocking up the hiding places for the Tories could be the best thing that's ever happened for the left, because the status quo for the last 40 years has been pretty bad for us, let be honest.
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DJKL
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#77
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#77
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I hear you, but I think that is so defeatist. Are we really saying this is the best we can do, manufacture dead maybe 10/15 years left? And unelected eurocrats easing the pain of the conservatives, then the tories taking the credit for said polices and the left just becoming a forever nothing?

I agree you will be more moderate than me, I'm anti royal, pro nationalisation, pro high taxation, pro unions, pro social housing you know the score. I know the tories will provide non of this for me, however should people not get what they vote for.

I think blocking up the hiding places for the Tories could be the best thing that's ever happened for the left, because the status quo for the last 40 years has been pretty bad for us, let be honest.
Manufacturing is dead by design under a no deal Brexit, just read Partick Minford from Economists for Brexit,

"Under this policy (‘Britain Alone’), he describes his model as predicting the
‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a big increase in wage inequality. These
outcomes may be hard to sell to UK citizens as a desirable political option"


http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf

The people who will be destroyed in this are the very people you claim to support I do not know where you have been hiding, maybe you do not study economics, but manufacturing will NOT be a beneficiary of Brexit and those who work in manufacturing will not benefit, if you think the last 40 years have been bad try to think why?

The cause is not the EU, it in fact has been protecting you from the rest of the world, we are in an economic period where what were once called third world economies are slowly, and it is slowly, catching up re standards of living, that means western economies are going to suffer stagnant growth of wages, standards of living will slow their increases over what will be a long and painful process. Now if you want to face the world with no protections then just fully exit the EU and that block that protects you, but do not kid yourself there is a brave new world with UK unleashed, there is not, there is unemployment, shifts in our economy and those at the bottom, the ones that have already had some pain, will move into a much worse circle of hell. (Dante)

Frankly left wing Brexit supporters to me look like they have the wrong cure, however does it bother me personally, no, I can stop work tomorrow, Iam much older, I own a house, have savings etc, but for all those who do not it will be them who will pay the price.

So- like Clint says, " are you feeling lucky" because to date I have seen no signs, heard no rational argument, that on economic grounds you should be.
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Burton Bridge
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#78
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#78
(Original post by DJKL)
Manufacturing is dead by design under a no deal Brexit, just read Partick Minford from Economists for Brexit,

"Under this policy (‘Britain Alone’), he describes his model as predicting the
‘elimination’ of UK manufacturing and a big increase in wage inequality. These
outcomes may be hard to sell to UK citizens as a desirable political option"


http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf

The people who will be destroyed in this are the very people you claim to support I do not know where you have been hiding, maybe you do not study economics, but manufacturing will NOT be a beneficiary of Brexit and those who work in manufacturing will not benefit, if you think the last 40 years have been bad try to think why?

The cause is not the EU, it in fact has been protecting you from the rest of the world, we are in an economic period where what were once called third world economies are slowly, and it is slowly, catching up re standards of living, that means western economies are going to suffer stagnant growth of wages, standards of living will slow their increases over what will be a long and painful process. Now if you want to face the world with no protections then just fully exit the EU and that block that protects you, but do not kid yourself there is a brave new world with UK unleashed, there is not, there is unemployment, shifts in our economy and those at the bottom, the ones that have already had some pain, will move into a much worse circle of hell. (Dante)

Frankly left wing Brexit supporters to me look like they have the wrong cure, however does it bother me personally, no, I can stop work tomorrow, Iam much older, I own a house, have savings etc, but for all those who do not it will be them who will pay the price.

So- like Clint says, " are you feeling lucky" because to date I have seen no signs, heard no rational argument, that on economic grounds you should be.
Well I too own my own house and several others i rent out also, i still have to work but I could get by, but I have a grandkid (I stated young) and a disabled son not this matters to the debate, bit it does make me worry for the future, I can only do so much.

One of us will be correct, I'm sorry I dont believe you. I cannot accept that this is the best we can do. I respect you think I have the wrong cure, but firstly i dont see brexit as a cure I see it as direction to make the country more democratic and in control of it's own destiny. I'd be happy too sack brexit off it we had a democratic mandate for it, but we are not going to get one and I'm a Democrat first and socialist second.

The last 40 years have been bad because of the political direction we have taken and the EU has not helped, I never said the EU was completely to blame. Also I think following john bercow, Oliver letwin, john major and dominic grieve's of this world, does not exactly fill me with confidence the status quo is best for my beliefs either.

Now linking up with my first paragraph, I have a choice follow the broken status quo, keep stumb and except my children will have little hope of a pension and stable employment or opt for change. ... maybevthe change I will get it worse but the status quo is pretty dire also.
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DJKL
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#79
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#79
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Well I too own my own house and several others i rent out also, i still have to work but I could get by, but I have a grandkid (I stated young) and a disabled son not this matters to the debate, bit it does make me worry for the future, I can only do so much.

One of us will be correct, I'm sorry I dont believe you. I cannot accept that this is the best we can do. I respect you think I have the wrong cure, but firstly i dont see brexit as a cure I see it as direction to make the country more democratic and in control of it's own destiny. I'd be happy too sack brexit off it we had a democratic mandate for it, but we are not going to get one and I'm a Democrat first and socialist second.

The last 40 years have been bad because of the political direction we have taken and the EU has not helped, I never said the EU was completely to blame. Also I think following john bercow, Oliver letwin, john major and dominic grieve's of this world, does not exactly fill me with confidence the status quo is best for my beliefs either.

Now linking up with my first paragraph, I have a choice follow the broken status quo, keep stumb and except my children will have little hope of a pension and stable employment or opt for change. ... maybevthe change I will get it worse but the status quo is pretty dire also.
Well if that is the case there is an element of I'm alright Jack here, there is virtually no economic case that a No Deal exit from the EU will be good for our economy but you seem to be following the path because you cannot think up anything else.

If I can quote Shakespeare,

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings"

I would replace stars with the EU Stars and observe that changes you might want to see can be achieved within the EU, you have been sold the tale that it is the source of our woes, you really are mistaken, the woes the UK has are clearly on display , you do not need to go much further, than the political classes, Brexit does not cure that it just sweeps away more moderate voices and leaves us with the ignorant from both sides, but then ignorance is their new god, " Britain has had enough of Experts" so forget what they say and sail blindly forward.

If you have not done so read Richard North's blog, he is a leaver, he believes there is a democratic deficit, he believes our governance needs reform (Harrogate Agenda), he is a strange bedfellow to my remain position, but you should read his blog re what actually is possible re trade and agreements, away from the politicians, he is an expert and a pretty erudite one at that and worth reading.

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.asp...#disqus_thread
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LiberOfLondon
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#80
(Original post by QE2)
Being happy to instal a hard-right Tory government just to ensure what is essentially a right-wing wet-dream is the behaviour of someone with right-wing sympathies. There is no argument for Brexit that benefits the working, or even middle class. No genuine socialist would ever willingly enable a Tory government led by the likes of Mogg & Johnson, even if it did mean something or other about immigrants.
Brexit = deregulation = cheaper manufacturing costs = cheaper prices (for food, clothing etc).
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