Bolivia has 1st female president Watch

Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
If the CIA wanted to remove him, they would've done it ages ago. His anti-Americanism has been going on for a very long time (and with good reasons).
I'm partially taking the piss, because the CIA are usually destabilising regimes that aren't useful to the US (let's not forget them trafficking drugs to fund the Contras) and this is undeniably a coup, but also he planned to nationalise the lithium industry and since that's soon to be an important resource for the production of electric cars, it becomes more important for America to be rid of him. After all, Capitals Interests (and enforcement) Agency cannot let valuable resources not be hoarded by the already wealthy.
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
If you don't know anything about the subject, keep quiet or learn about it. He was re-elected by the Bolivian people, the head of the army then demanded his resignation and arrest
I agree. If you don't know anything about the subject, keep quiet or learn about it.

This was going to be his fourth consecutive term as president. How many reelection does the Bolivian constitution (which he created and installed) allow? *Once*.

The second reelection he claimed he could run again because he changed the official name of hos country and so Bolivia was a new country. That was despite him saying he would not run again.

Then in hos third reelection he once again went back on his word and chose to run again, despite this time even losing a referendum that would've allowed him the constitutionality of running again. So that's not democracy?

This is without mentioning the fact that this particular election is disputed by the OAS, so with it being so close, it should've been redone with independent international observers in the first place.

You also got your basic facts wrong. The military didn't request his arrest. According to Morales, which is obviously not an objective source, all tbe military did was to tell him he doesn't have their support and that there's a bounty on him.

The people rose up first and that's an objective fact. Then the police force from 3 cities defected. At no point was tbe military involved up till that very point above.

If the military wanted him arrested and/or dead, it would've happened already. The people overthrew by the CIA don't generally survive to tell the tale. And Mexico's AMLO has been kowtowing to tbe US so if it was actually the CIA, he wouldn't have been so proactive about this.

There's no doubt that Morales has brought progress to his country. There's no doubt that Morales was a democratically elected leader. There's no doubt that he remains popular and probably would've won in a completely fair election for most likely the last term.

But he ignored the constitution (which he wrote in the first place), he ignored the referendum result (which he called in the first place), and has consistently broke his promise of not running for another term. He's a dictator in the making and it's unfortunate that you are supporting him.

Whether it's a military coup we will have to see what happens next - if the interim president calls a clean election and the transfer of power remains civil, then it clearly isn't.
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
I'm partially taking the piss, because the CIA are usually destabilising regimes that aren't useful to the US (let's not forget them trafficking drugs to fund the Contras) and this is undeniably a coup, but also he planned to nationalise the lithium industry and since that's soon to be an important resource for the production of electric cars, it becomes more important for America to be rid of him. After all, Capitals Interests (and enforcement) Agency cannot let valuable resources not be hoarded by the already wealthy.
I know very well what the US has done in Latin America, as a soon-to-be permanent resident of the Latin American country where the US has meddled the most.

I have responded to your coup comment in another post.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
I agree. If you don't know anything about the subject, keep quiet or learn about it.

This was going to be his fourth consecutive term as president. How many reelection does the Bolivian constitution (which he created and installed) allow? *Once*.

The second reelection he claimed he could run again because he changed the official name of hos country and so Bolivia was a new country. That was despite him saying he would not run again.

Then in hos third reelection he once again went back on his word and chose to run again, despite this time even losing a referendum that would've allowed him the constitutionality of running again. So that's not democracy?

This is without mentioning the fact that this particular election is disputed by the OAS, so with it being so close, it should've been redone with independent international observers in the first place.

You also got your basic facts wrong. The military didn't request his arrest. According to Morales, which is obviously not an objective source, all tbe military did was to tell him he doesn't have their support and that there's a bounty on him.

The people rose up first and that's an objective fact. Then the police force from 3 cities defected. At no point was tbe military involved up till that very point above.

If the military wanted him arrested and/or dead, it would've happened already. The people overthrew by the CIA don't generally survive to tell the tale. And Mexico's AMLO has been kowtowing to tbe US so if it was actually the CIA, he wouldn't have been so proactive about this.

There's no doubt that Morales has brought progress to his country. There's no doubt that Morales was a democratically elected leader. There's no doubt that he remains popular and probably would've won in a completely fair election for most likely the last term.

But he ignored the constitution (which he wrote in the first place), he ignored the referendum result (which he called in the first place), and has consistently broke his promise of not running for another term. He's a dictator in the making and it's unfortunate that you are supporting him.

Whether it's a military coup we will have to see what happens next - if the interim president calls a clean election and the transfer of power remains civil, then it clearly isn't.
Term limits were declared unconstitutional in 2017. The dispute over the results is ridiculously spurious and has no basis in fact, just bad faith statistical analysis, and Morales did offer to hold a rerun, which his opponents rejected.

Holding free and fair elections, accepting lies by his opponents and offering to ease those faux concerns, is the exact opposite of a dictatorship
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EstdothProtest
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50373722

Bolivia has broken the glass ceiling and has its first female president, after the resignation of the former president, former vice-president, and former president of the senate.

#feminism

In South America, Bolivia now joins the United Kingdom as the only 2 countries in the region to have a female head of state.
This is such a dumb take. This is coming after the coup of Bolivia's first indigenous president who is also a leftist refusing to fold to the World Bank and IMF is being replaced by a right wing, racist white woman. How is that a success in anyway? She isn't even elected which is the silliest thing in what you assert. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanin...z#cite_note-22).

I really urge everyone to go and watch this it's only half an hour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce7MPpAc2rw
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by EstdothProtest)
This is such a dumb take. This is coming after the coup of Bolivia's first indigenous president who is also a leftist refusing to fold to the World Bank and IMF is being replaced by a right wing, racist white woman. How is that a success in anyway? She isn't even elected which is the silliest thing in what you assert. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanin...z#cite_note-22).

I really urge everyone to go and watch this it's only half an hour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce7MPpAc2rw
Where did I even say she was elected? Her Majesty The Queen, the only other female head of state in the region, also isn't elected.
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Term limits were declared unconstitutional in 2017. The dispute over the results is ridiculously spurious and has no basis in fact, just bad faith statistical analysis, and Morales did offer to hold a rerun, which his opponents rejected.

Holding free and fair elections, accepting lies by his opponents and offering to ease those faux concerns, is the exact opposite of a dictatorship
So the constitution itself was unconstitutional? Make it make sense please. It was declared to be in violation of human rights, a ridiculous claim.

And the judgement comes right after voters voted against his referendum.

So you're supporting ignoring the constitution as well as a democratic showing.

Like I said, the best solution would indeed be to simply hold fresh elections, although without him as the presidential candidate, as his multiple re-elections have been unconstitutional. The result would most likely have been whoever he endorses would win the presidency in the run-off after the first round. And this still could be the result if the interim president does indeed hold a clean election in the future. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

Your claim was quite misleading - he offered a rerun, but there wasn't even enough time for anyone to actually reject it before he resigned. He himself cited the reason for his resignation for being the military withdrawing their support - if the military and the opponents were already in bed the whole time, they could have done it quite early on. In any case, accepting a rereun with him still as a candidate does not solve the problem.

Do you even know Morales? He's one of the most populist leaders in the world.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
He was re-elected by the Bolivian people
Because ballot boxes just vanish in democracies...
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
So the constitution itself was unconstitutional? Make it make sense please. It was declared to be in violation of human rights, a ridiculous claim.

And the judgement comes right after voters voted against his referendum.

So you're supporting ignoring the constitution as well as a democratic showing.

Like I said, the best solution would indeed be to simply hold fresh elections, although without him as the presidential candidate, as his multiple re-elections have been unconstitutional. The result would most likely have been whoever he endorses would win the presidency in the run-off after the first round. And this still could be the result if the interim president does indeed hold a clean election in the future. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

Your claim was quite misleading - he offered a rerun, but there wasn't even enough time for anyone to actually reject it before he resigned. He himself cited the reason for his resignation for being the military withdrawing their support - if the military and the opponents were already in bed the whole time, they could have done it quite early on. In any case, accepting a rereun with him still as a candidate does not solve the problem.

Do you even know Morales? He's one of the most populist leaders in the world.
Whether or not he should have stepped aside for a new candidate (he should, 19 years by the end of this term is far too long for anyone to be in charge) is a question of morals and principles around power, the fact remains that he stood in an election he was legally allowed to stand in, won said election freely and fairly, and then was forced out by the military. The only reason anyone is denying that it's a coup is because it benefits the west.

As for him being a populist, that's not inherently a bad thing. Left wing populism is redressing the imbalance of power created and affords time for legitimate grievances. Only right wing populism is bad, because right wing policy is inherently for the benefit of the elite, and so to appeal to those who feel left behind founds itself on conspiracies about other powerless groups, inevitably leading to fascism.

(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Because ballot boxes just vanish in democracies...
This isn't the 2000 US election, the swing is entirely understandable and predictable as a function of geography - poorer and rural areas had higher support for Morales and declared later. Claiming fix on that swing holds as much weight as claiming the Tories rig elections here on the basis that a lot of labour safe seats declare earlier in the evening.
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QE2
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
He stepped down. It wasn't a coup.
So if you hand over your wallet to three large, intimidating men in a dark street when they ask for it, it wasn't a mugging?

But keep believing whatever rubbish Comrade Corbyn and the Canary tell you, and keep voting for a party that wants to tax aspiration and keep ”the plebs” in their place.
Are you ok?
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Whether or not he should have stepped aside for a new candidate (he should, 19 years by the end of this term is far too long for anyone to be in charge) is a question of morals and principles around power, the fact remains that he stood in an election he was legally allowed to stand in, won said election freely and fairly, and then was forced out by the military. The only reason anyone is denying that it's a coup is because it benefits the west.

As for him being a populist, that's not inherently a bad thing. Left wing populism is redressing the imbalance of power created and affords time for legitimate grievances. Only right wing populism is bad, because right wing policy is inherently for the benefit of the elite, and so to appeal to those who feel left behind founds itself on conspiracies about other powerless groups, inevitably leading to fascism.
If it does turn into a military dictatorship, then I'll admit I'm wrong and say it's a coup. From the context, you can very well understand the withdrawal of support as the military unwilling to violent suppress the protests, which once again, was a claim that came only Morales.

Morales staying on would only corrupt him and lead him to eventually become a full-on dictator. Saying he changed the name of the country thus he could run again because it's a new country was already bad enough. He has been cultivating a cult for himself. Have you been to La Paz? His face is everywhere. Among the countries I've visited, that only happened in China, India (which is now under intense Hindu nationalism), North Korea (not the current Supreme Leader, but pictures of the former two), and Cuba. Not very good company.

If populism is bad, then it's bad everywhere. What you're really arguing is simply that leftism is good and the alternative isn't.

The argument that it's totally fine to ignore the constitution and the referendum is very weak. By this logic, all elections in say, Hong Kong, are legitimate, even as the government filters out candidates for their political views.
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Occitanie
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
What are you talking about? Obama being elected eliminated racism in the US immediately.

Sexism has now been solved in Bolivia and it's time you face that fact.

#supportwomen
Loving the jest.
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Napp
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
Where did I even say she was elected? Her Majesty The Queen, the only other female head of state in the region, also isn't elected.
Her Majesty is only a de jure head of state though, excersising little to no power.
Although some would argue, with superb reasoning, that she probably should. After all, whom do you trust to run the country for the greater good; someone who has dedicated her entire life to it and is (arguably) the foremost expert on the running of a state or some chimp whose job it is to lie through their teeth and pander to petty political concerns?
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Whether or not he should have stepped aside for a new candidate (he should, 19 years by the end of this term is far too long for anyone to be in charge) is a question of morals and principles around power, the fact remains that he stood in an election he was legally allowed to stand in, won said election freely and fairly, and then was forced out by the military. The only reason anyone is denying that it's a coup is because it benefits the west.

As for him being a populist, that's not inherently a bad thing. Left wing populism is redressing the imbalance of power created and affords time for legitimate grievances. Only right wing populism is bad, because right wing policy is inherently for the benefit of the elite, and so to appeal to those who feel left behind founds itself on conspiracies about other powerless groups, inevitably leading to fascism.



This isn't the 2000 US election, the swing is entirely understandable and predictable as a function of geography - poorer and rural areas had higher support for Morales and declared later. Claiming fix on that swing holds as much weight as claiming the Tories rig elections here on the basis that a lot of labour safe seats declare earlier in the evening.
To sum up your argument:
”things are only bad when the filthy right wing Tory fascists do them”
There is a difference between a few hours at the count (which is because Newcastle is a densely populated area and employs 6th formers as runners) and a day or so that *just so happens* to give Morales a victory.
(Original post by QE2)
So if you hand over your wallet to three large, intimidating men in a dark street when they ask for it, it wasn't a mugging?


Are you ok?
The only intimidation is being done by Morales' thugs rioting.
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EstdothProtest
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
Where did I even say she was elected? Her Majesty The Queen, the only other female head of state in the region, also isn't elected.
I mean is there really a point in celebrating her presidency - especially framing it relating to gender equality - if she gained it as a technicality...
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by EstdothProtest)
I mean is there really a point in celebrating her presidency - especially framing it relating to gender equality - if she gained it as a technicality...
I'd encourage you to buy and read the memoir of Her Excellency President Selina Meyer's best-selling book, A Woman First: First Woman.
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EstdothProtest
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
I'd encourage you to buy and read the memoir of Her Excellency President Selina Meyer's best-selling book, A Woman First: First Woman.
will do!
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Pinkisk
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She usurped power by undemocratic means, after a coup de tat most probably organised by the US...I agree, this is a great representation for feminism. This is like a great example of how feminism acts as a vessel for the spread of colonial control across the world...

Anti-democracy, fear and violence, betrayal, totalitarianism, authoritarianism, war, theft of wealth, death and destruction = feminism 101.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Pinkisk)
She usurped power by undemocratic means, after a coup de tat most probably organised by the US...I agree, this is a great representation for feminism. This is like a great example of how feminism acts as a vessel for the spread of colonial control across the world...

Anti-democracy, fear and violence, betrayal, totalitarianism, authoritarianism, war, theft of wealth, death and destruction = feminism 101.
Neckbeard alert!
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by Pinkisk)
She usurped power by undemocratic means, after a coup de tat most probably organised by the US...I agree, this is a great representation for feminism. This is like a great example of how feminism acts as a vessel for the spread of colonial control across the world...

Anti-democracy, fear and violence, betrayal, totalitarianism, authoritarianism, war, theft of wealth, death and destruction = feminism 101.
Female writer Dr Jung Chang presented Her Imperial Majesty Cixi, the Empress Dowager as a feminist icon. Don't forget the much celebrated HIM Empress Wu as well. There's of course also "The Blood Mary", Her Majesty Mary, The Queen of England and Spain, and her namesake, Mary, Queen of Scots.

In more recent memory, Nobel Peace Prize laureate State Councillor Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, Prime Minister Golda Meir, Baroness Margaret Thatcher, Chief Executive Carrie Lam, Prime Minister Yingluck, Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, First Lady Madame Mao, President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, Prime Minister Julia Gillard, President Park, President Dilma Rousseff, and so on.

Having a female leader never meant the country would necessarily enjoy peace and prosperity, the same goes to having a woman in any position. They are not linked. Feminism is just about the equality between the sexes, not about general peace and harmony for everyone.
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