viliamreis297
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#1
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#1
"If Brexit does not happen then Democracy is dead in the UK"

Agree or Disagree.
Plus explanation as to why?
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DJKL
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#2
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#2
If Brexit does/does not happen then Democracy is dead in the UK

Agree or Disagree.
Plus explanation as to why?


Frankly I am of the view that Democracy is both dead and alive, but you do not find out until you open the box.
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Trumbles
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I would say it's complete nonsense. (Is this for an essay or are you thinking about how to vote?)

1) For a start, this is not usually the way in which democracy is done in the UK (or many places really).

We have a system of representative democracy in which you elect people rather than policies. Churchill and Attlee, for example, might be a bit surprised to hear that they came to power before democracy began.

There are good reasons for this. For a start: if you ask people in separate polls whether they want to pay less tax and whether they want better funded public services they'll probably say 'yes' to both. You need someone to do the nitty-gritty and the judgment calls.

You could reasonably say that it would be shameful if those who brought the referendum refused to accept the result, and so David Cameron should step down as Prime Minister immediately if he's not going to make it happen. Oh wait, he did.

2) The referendum result was not legally binding (see link). The legislation passed to make it happen didn't require that. Possibly MPs wouldn't have passed it if it had.

Again, Parliament has the final say in our democracy. People don't like the referendum being described as 'merely advisory', but we can't be governed by votes without legislation backing them. Otherwise they're just Big Opinion Polls.
https://constitution-unit.com/2016/0...te-for-brexit/

3) Vote Leave, the official campaign group for Brexit, broke electoral law and was fined by the Electoral Commission. They blustered about it and said they would appeal, but then quietly dropped that appeal. There is an ongoing police investigation into them (which is taking an extraordinarily long time) and just weeks ago the police handed a file to the Crown Prosecution Service.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...-cps-1-6354553

We have electoral laws for a reason – for one thing it makes it less likely that the richer side wins every time.

Many people argue that the given the lawbreaking the referendum should have been quashed and re-run. Ironically one of the reasons there was no legal case for that is that the referendum wasn't legally binding in the first place. It was a political decision to trigger Article 50 which didn't follow automatically from the referendum result.

4) Offering a simple Yes/No question for an issue as complex as leaving the EU and then arguing that the public shouldn't be asked again if they like the final deal (or no deal) is absurd. Polling done immediately after the referendum by ComRes for the BBC suggested that – allowing for some negotiated limits on free movement – a majority of *Leave-voters* favoured staying in the single market. The Leave campaigns never made it clear that leaving the SM was what they were intending.

If the original question had been "Do you want Britain to leave [...] including leaving the single market and customs union." I don't believe for a second that we'd have got the same result. (But I'm very happy to check in a final say referendum.) In fact I don't think there's ever been a poll about a (final say) referendum that says people would vote for a realistic outcome (no deal, May's deal, Boris's deal, SM&CU...) above Remain.

5) The Leave campaign was based on some ridiculous lies, most famously that £350m a week was being sent to the EU which would simply be freed up by leaving and which would then be spent on the NHS. (The UK Statistics Authority – amongst many, many others – derided this claim.) Also that Turkey was shortly to join the EU and Britain couldn't veto this – both false.

Some say that all political campaigns are full of claims that don't come true, but the point is that usually we're electing people. People can change their minds when circumstances change. (And if we don't like it at least we can vote them out next time round.) If we're electing ideas/policies that are based on lies there's not much left of them.


As a side-note, I'd say that Johnson deciding to sit on the Russian interference report (which may refer to the EU ref) until after the election is a much greater affront to democracy and there is no justification for that whatsoever.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4285106.html
________________________________ __________________
Anyway, don't forget to register to vote. Remember that if you are at uni you can register both there and at your home address (but you can only vote at one).
https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote
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viliamreis297
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#4
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#4
(Original post by Trumbles)
I would say it's complete nonsense. (Is this for an essay or are you thinking about how to vote?)

1) For a start, this is not usually the way in which democracy is done in the UK (or many places really).

We have a system of representative democracy in which you elect people rather than policies. Churchill and Attlee, for example, might be a bit surprised to hear that they came to power before democracy began.

There are good reasons for this. For a start: if you ask people in separate polls whether they want to pay less tax and whether they want better funded public services they'll probably say 'yes' to both. You need someone to do the nitty-gritty and the judgment calls.

You could reasonably say that it would be shameful if those who brought the referendum refused to accept the result, and so David Cameron should step down as Prime Minister immediately if he's not going to make it happen. Oh wait, he did.

2) The referendum result was not legally binding (see link). The legislation passed to make it happen didn't require that. Possibly MPs wouldn't have passed it if it had.

Again, Parliament has the final say in our democracy. People don't like the referendum being described as 'merely advisory', but we can't be governed by votes without legislation backing them. Otherwise they're just Big Opinion Polls.
https://constitution-unit.com/2016/0...te-for-brexit/

3) Vote Leave, the official campaign group for Brexit, broke electoral law and was fined by the Electoral Commission. They blustered about it and said they would appeal, but then quietly dropped that appeal. There is an ongoing police investigation into them (which is taking an extraordinarily long time) and just weeks ago the police handed a file to the Crown Prosecution Service.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...-cps-1-6354553

We have electoral laws for a reason – for one thing it makes it less likely that the richer side wins every time.

Many people argue that the given the lawbreaking the referendum should have been quashed and re-run. Ironically one of the reasons there was no legal case for that is that the referendum wasn't legally binding in the first place. It was a political decision to trigger Article 50 which didn't follow automatically from the referendum result.

4) Offering a simple Yes/No question for an issue as complex as leaving the EU and then arguing that the public shouldn't be asked again if they like the final deal (or no deal) is absurd. Polling done immediately after the referendum by ComRes for the BBC suggested that – allowing for some negotiated limits on free movement – a majority of *Leave-voters* favoured staying in the single market. The Leave campaigns never made it clear that leaving the SM was what they were intending.

If the original question had been "Do you want Britain to leave [...] including leaving the single market and customs union." I don't believe for a second that we'd have got the same result. (But I'm very happy to check in a final say referendum.) In fact I don't think there's ever been a poll about a (final say) referendum that says people would vote for a realistic outcome (no deal, May's deal, Boris's deal, SM&CU...) above Remain.

5) The Leave campaign was based on some ridiculous lies, most famously that £350m a week was being sent to the EU which would simply be freed up by leaving and which would then be spent on the NHS. (The UK Statistics Authority – amongst many, many others – derided this claim.) Also that Turkey was shortly to join the EU and Britain couldn't veto this – both false.

Some say that all political campaigns are full of claims that don't come true, but the point is that usually we're electing people. People can change their minds when circumstances change. (And if we don't like it at least we can vote them out next time round.) If we're electing ideas/policies that are based on lies there's not much left of them.


As a side-note, I'd say that Johnson deciding to sit on the Russian interference report (which may refer to the EU ref) until after the election is a much greater affront to democracy and there is no justification for that whatsoever.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4285106.html
________________________________ __________________
Anyway, don't forget to register to vote. Remember that if you are at uni you can register both there and at your home address (but you can only vote at one).
https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote
Its for an essay. Btw thank you for the information.
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robsole
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#5
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#5
Rather than Brexit being used to stop working people coming into this country and making a contribution to society its a same it couldnt be used to get rid of all the waste we have in society namely the paedophiles, rapists, molesters and other such millions who just leach off the state
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QE2
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#6
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#6
(Original post by viliamreis297)
"If Brexit does not happen then Democracy is dead in the UK"

Agree or Disagree.
Plus explanation as to why?
Disagree.
Brexit has little to do with the vitality, or otherwise, of democracy in the UK.
Even if the government had said, directly after the referendum, "thanks for the input, but we'll be staying", it would not have been the death of democracy any more than a government not fulfilling election promises would be. It is merely an argument from emotion by those who have no other argument to present. We know this because those same people are vehemently against any further vote on the issue - even after 4 years and a trough-full of revelations. They may as well complain that next month's election is "undemocratic" because we had one two years ago and must "respect the result".
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QE2
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#7
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#7
(Original post by Trumbles)
I would say it's complete nonsense. (Is this for an essay or are you thinking about how to vote?)

1) For a start, this is not usually the way in which democracy is done in the UK (or many places really).

We have a system of representative democracy in which you elect people rather than policies. Churchill and Attlee, for example, might be a bit surprised to hear that they came to power before democracy began.

There are good reasons for this. For a start: if you ask people in separate polls whether they want to pay less tax and whether they want better funded public services they'll probably say 'yes' to both. You need someone to do the nitty-gritty and the judgment calls.

You could reasonably say that it would be shameful if those who brought the referendum refused to accept the result, and so David Cameron should step down as Prime Minister immediately if he's not going to make it happen. Oh wait, he did.

2) The referendum result was not legally binding (see link). The legislation passed to make it happen didn't require that. Possibly MPs wouldn't have passed it if it had.

Again, Parliament has the final say in our democracy. People don't like the referendum being described as 'merely advisory', but we can't be governed by votes without legislation backing them. Otherwise they're just Big Opinion Polls.
https://constitution-unit.com/2016/0...te-for-brexit/

3) Vote Leave, the official campaign group for Brexit, broke electoral law and was fined by the Electoral Commission. They blustered about it and said they would appeal, but then quietly dropped that appeal. There is an ongoing police investigation into them (which is taking an extraordinarily long time) and just weeks ago the police handed a file to the Crown Prosecution Service.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...-cps-1-6354553

We have electoral laws for a reason – for one thing it makes it less likely that the richer side wins every time.

Many people argue that the given the lawbreaking the referendum should have been quashed and re-run. Ironically one of the reasons there was no legal case for that is that the referendum wasn't legally binding in the first place. It was a political decision to trigger Article 50 which didn't follow automatically from the referendum result.

4) Offering a simple Yes/No question for an issue as complex as leaving the EU and then arguing that the public shouldn't be asked again if they like the final deal (or no deal) is absurd. Polling done immediately after the referendum by ComRes for the BBC suggested that – allowing for some negotiated limits on free movement – a majority of *Leave-voters* favoured staying in the single market. The Leave campaigns never made it clear that leaving the SM was what they were intending.

If the original question had been "Do you want Britain to leave [...] including leaving the single market and customs union." I don't believe for a second that we'd have got the same result. (But I'm very happy to check in a final say referendum.) In fact I don't think there's ever been a poll about a (final say) referendum that says people would vote for a realistic outcome (no deal, May's deal, Boris's deal, SM&CU...) above Remain.

5) The Leave campaign was based on some ridiculous lies, most famously that £350m a week was being sent to the EU which would simply be freed up by leaving and which would then be spent on the NHS. (The UK Statistics Authority – amongst many, many others – derided this claim.) Also that Turkey was shortly to join the EU and Britain couldn't veto this – both false.

Some say that all political campaigns are full of claims that don't come true, but the point is that usually we're electing people. People can change their minds when circumstances change. (And if we don't like it at least we can vote them out next time round.) If we're electing ideas/policies that are based on lies there's not much left of them.


As a side-note, I'd say that Johnson deciding to sit on the Russian interference report (which may refer to the EU ref) until after the election is a much greater affront to democracy and there is no justification for that whatsoever.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4285106.html
________________________________ __________________
Anyway, don't forget to register to vote. Remember that if you are at uni you can register both there and at your home address (but you can only vote at one).
https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote
This should be required reading.
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viliamreis297
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#8
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#8
(Original post by robsole)
Rather than Brexit being used to stop working people coming into this country and making a contribution to society its a same it couldnt be used to get rid of all the waste we have in society namely the paedophiles, rapists, molesters and other such millions who just leach off the state
Well said
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