Brexit Referendum and Democracy Watch

RogerOxon
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#1
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Given the comments from Brexit supporters, I propose that we change how we handle general elections:

- An election is a statement of intent
- Only vague policies allowed - no detail
- The elected party takes office at least 3.5 years later

Is this the ideal system?
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ByEeek
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So basically what you are saying is - politicians will promise the earth, deliver nothing or something completely different and do it or not do it in 3.5 years time.

Democracy is generally very good when it comes to making small incremental changes to make things ideal, better for a majority of people. It is incredibly blunt when it starts asking yes / no questions for massive changes that are going to shaft at least half the country.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by ByEeek)
So basically what you are saying is - politicians will promise the earth, deliver nothing or something completely different and do it or not do it in 3.5 years time.

Democracy is generally very good when it comes to making small incremental changes to make things ideal, better for a majority of people. It is incredibly blunt when it starts asking yes / no questions for massive changes that are going to shaft at least half the country.
I'm trying to show the logical consequences of the ridiculous belief that a referendum on the leave deal would be 'anti-democratic'.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
I'm trying to show the logical consequences of the ridiculous belief that a referendum on the leave deal would be 'anti-democratic'.
Well not really. What is anti-democratic was that people voted in the belief that:
- immigration would fall
- a deal would be easy to do
- the NHS would be £350 million a week better off

In reality, immigration hasn't even been discussed, the NHS has been forgotten and in the eyes of those trying to do that easy deal that the EU would have fallen over themselves to give us (so we can buy BMWs), we find two successive PMs have failed to secure a deal that even their own parties could back.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Well not really. What is anti-democratic was that people voted in the belief that:
- immigration would fall
- a deal would be easy to do
- the NHS would be £350 million a week better off

In reality, immigration hasn't even been discussed, the NHS has been forgotten and in the eyes of those trying to do that easy deal that the EU would have fallen over themselves to give us (so we can buy BMWs), we find two successive PMs have failed to secure a deal that even their own parties could back.
IMO, deals have had a hard time getting through Parliament (the second one has, in principal) because the referendum question was so vague. Opinion on how it should be implemented is fragmented. There simply isn't a majority for stay, leave with a deal, or leave without a deal, in Parliament, or in the country. The deals aren't much more than a framework either - there's a huge amount of negotiation still to be done.

Some have reaslised that they were misled, and changed their opinion. New voters are frustrated that they're not getting a say on Brexit, when it's still not concrete. Others (me included) think that the correct way to resolve an impasse on a single issue is a referendum (although I would have preferred that we never had one - the public, in general, do not make well-informed decisions).
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ColinDent
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
IMO, deals have had a hard time getting through Parliament (the second one has, in principal) because the referendum question was so vague. Opinion on how it should be implemented is fragmented. There simply isn't a majority for stay, leave with a deal, or leave without a deal, in Parliament, or in the country. The deals aren't much more than a framework either - there's a huge amount of negotiation still to be done.

Some have reaslised that they were misled, and changed their opinion. New voters are frustrated that they're not getting a say on Brexit, when it's still not concrete. Others (me included) think that the correct way to resolve an impasse on a single issue is a referendum (although I would have preferred that we never had one - the public, in general, do not make well-informed decisions).
Then you had better hope Labour win the election, if they don't and the Tories do then that will be an answer on the matter as it should then go on to be resolved, although probably not in the exact form which I personally desired.
Oh and you seem to be neglecting mentioning those that have changed their minds and now want to leave, or even those that would now vote to leave out of principal because they feel the original result should still be adhered to
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Then you had better hope Labour win the election, if they don't and the Tories do then that will be an answer on the matter as it should then go on to be resolved, although probably not in the exact form which I personally desired.
Certainly not. Labour would bankrupt the country, IMO. I don't see any ideal choices though.

(Original post by ColinDent)
Oh and you seem to be neglecting mentioning those that have changed their minds and now want to leave, or even those that would now vote to leave out of principal because they feel the original result should still be adhered to
Either way, we have a lot more information about what Brexit would look like, with more issues having been discussed. For example, the Irish border. A vote now, on this single issue, would, IMO, provide a more informed outcome, although I would not trust most to have the time to understand much of the complexity of any of the options - that's why we have paid representatives.

There's something much more specific to vote on now. We should, as it's clear that Parliament doesn't have a majority. Some MPs are voting for a deal to respect the referendum result, without knowing if it's what their voters actually though Brexit meant.
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Drewski
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You can't compare elections to referendums.
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QE2
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
I'm trying to show the logical consequences of the ridiculous belief that a referendum on the leave deal would be 'anti-democratic'.
Farage walks into a pub and orders a pint.
The barman throws the pint in his face.
"Why did you do that?" asks Farage.
"You told me what you wanted, but not how you wanted it delivered", says the barman.
"Ok" sighs Farage, "Can I have a pint, in a pint glass?"
"You can't ask again" says the barman"
"Why not?" asks Farage.
"Democracy!" says the barman.
Last edited by QE2; 2 weeks ago
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Drewski)
You can't compare elections to referendums.
You can when try there are clear lines being drawn.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Certainly not. Labour would bankrupt the country, IMO. I don't see any ideal choices though.


Either way, we have a lot more information about what Brexit would look like, with more issues having been discussed. For example, the Irish border. A vote now, on this single issue, would, IMO, provide a more informed outcome, although I would not trust most to have the time to understand much of the complexity of any of the options - that's why we have paid representatives.

There's something much more specific to vote on now. We should, as it's clear that Parliament doesn't have a majority. Some MPs are voting for a deal to respect the referendum result, without knowing if it's what their voters actually though Brexit meant.
And hopefully we will have a more representative parliament after the election, one that does not have the majority wishing to remain in the EU.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by ColinDent)
And hopefully we will have a more representative parliament after the election, one that does not have the majority wishing to remain in the EU.
That may well happen. "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others"

Half the electorate having below average intelligence, doesn't help.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
That may well happen. "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others"

Half the electorate having below average intelligence, doesn't help.
Well that last statement is obvious, but please do not make the mistake of thinking that a formal education makes someone more intelligent than someone that has not had as much.
Last edited by ColinDent; 2 weeks ago
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Half the electorate having below average intelligence, doesn't help.
:rofl: That's a classic, just think about that for a moment

You do know average means? :facepalm:
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Napp
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(Original post by Drewski)
You can't compare elections to referendums.
Why not? They're both run in a farcical manner on tidal wave of outrageous fibs. at least if recent history is anything to go by.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
:rofl: That's a classic, just think about that for a moment

You do know average means? :facepalm:
I do. I know what median means too.

The point is to emphasise that this complex issue wasn't decided by the brightest, or best informed, people.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
I do. I know what median means too.

The point is to emphasise that this complex issue wasn't decided by the brightest, or best informed, people.
Depends where and how we measure bright and informed.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Depends where and how we measure bright and informed.
No, it doesn't, as we had everyone voting, with no selection criteria.
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londonmyst
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
No, it doesn't, as we had everyone voting, with no selection criteria.
There was a selection criteria.
Over 18, not a convicted offender serving an imprisonment sentence and not subject to sectioning in a secure hospital for mental patients.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by londonmyst)
There was a selection criteria.
Over 18, not a convicted offender serving an imprisonment sentence and not subject to sectioning in a secure hospital for mental patients.
That would be multiple criteria.

No relevant selection criteria, e.g. no requirement to have done any research into a complicated topic, or to be free of illegal bias. This is why I do not support referendum, on some issues, e.g. Brexit (too late now though), capital punishment.
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