muslim and started drinking alcohol - am I a bad muslim? Watch

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#81
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#81
(Original post by DraconisAudiat)
True dat.

The better question is if the rules and restrictions of Islam (Or any religion) are appropriate for the 21st Century.
Nope.
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Neurocandid
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#82
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A bad Muslim but not a bad person
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Anonymous #5
#83
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#83
(Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
I understood perfectly, it's just that the logic made no sense.

1) It doesn't matter if they're dilute, if they contain alcohol then in theory it is possible to take so many to get you drunk.

2) Exactly. You'd only get drunk if you kept drinking. But one can drink alcohol and not keep drinking. One can drink alcohol and stop when they know their limits. You can't base a spiritual prohibition on a hypothetical scenario. By that insane logic I could drain a whiskey bottle 4/5 of the way and then hand it over to a Muslim. Because of this they'd be able to drink the whiskey that's left as it's not very likely they could get drunk on 1/5 of the original volume.

3) Because getting drunk and tipsy is usually a gradual feeling and doesn't just suddenly appear. If you're drinking you can always tell when your head begins to feel slightly off normal and at that point you can stop. What a lot of other people do is neither here nor there because we're not talking about other people, we're focussing on the OP.

It is my place to say whatever I please as long as it falls within the confines of free speech and my comment qualifies as such. It's not a big no-no, I've been commenting on other people's religions for years and I will continue doing so.
1) Who told you 'in theory' it is possible to take so many that you get drunk? It is well known if you take certain medicines containing alcohol you won't get drunk.
2) Your second point isn't a valid argument, as the whole point of these rules are to stop these things happening in the first place, so that it stays hypothetical and doesn't become a reality amongst muslims. So you can't discard it on the bases that it's 'hypothetical'. And I've already told you how much damage alcohol does in society, so amongst those who drink, it's not hypothetical, it's reality. Islam weighs out the pros and cons of things, and alcohol does far more damage to society than good. You need to acknowledge the effect of alcohol on society holistically, not just individuals. Just because some people can control themselves doesn't mean society is better off with alcohol than without.
'Because of this they'd be able to drink the whiskey that's left as it's not very likely they could get drunk on 1/5 of the original volume' -> and can you guarantee that they won't get drunk? Why should Islamic rationale be based off these subjective opinions given how much damage alcohol does to society.
3) It's not just about OP, it's about all those other muslims who are also ignorant enough to take religious advice from people on TSR. Islam prohibits alcohol, end of. It's not something to debate about as the rules on this issue are clear as night and day.

There's nothing wrong with free speech, but you should study these things before debating them. I don't mean that in a rude way, I'm just saying because I get tired of people giving their opinions and interpretations, saying there's no logic, when they've not studied the religion properly.
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Anonymous #5
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#84
(Original post by londonmyst)
I disagree with your final sentence.
All people must be able to rely on their self-control and willpower, regardless of whether they are interested in religion or not.

A person's ability to demonstrate their self control and willpower is of crucial importance in life.
Imagine the consequences of lacking enough self control to avoid control violently lashing out when angry.
Or insufficient self-control to moderate personal diet or control personal spending to live within ones means.
Unfortunately a great proportion of society lack that self control. Hence, Islam has sufficient wisdom to acknowledge this, hence, prohibiting alcohol. If we go by your statement, then why have law and order? Why have cameras to detect speed when you have speed limitations on roads? Why not just rely on people to have the self control to keep to the correct speed? What's the point of police? Why not just rely on people to not commit crime via self control?
Look up the stats and information for disease, domestic abuse, road traffic accidents, public misconduct, hospital admissions, depression, addiction, in relation to alcohol. Anyone who educates themselves on these things will understand very clearly why Islam prohibited alcohol.

Look at Americans, 50% of Americans are obese. They sure have self-control over their appetites.
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Xxalliex
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#85
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I personally don't think your a bad Muslim as allah is the most merciful the most kind . But remember one thing we shouldn't do is judge one another for our sins.
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Professional G
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#86
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#86
(Original post by agentofchaos)
whats even 21st century? In few decades, half of the global population will be muslim.
Im personally fine with restrictions of any religion. If THE 21st century (world of accelerated moral relativism and beginning of anti realism) is invaded by a religion which is highly likely, I will side with the latter.
Well religion better modernise or else, sooner or later, it’s going to die out. That’s what happens when ideals are unable to adapt to modern society
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Anonymous #5
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#87
(Original post by londonmyst)
I think you misunderstood my question, I'll clarify.
The JW religion does specifically teach all its followers to go around knocking on everyone's doors trying to convert random strangers.
The JW religion also specifically forbids all blood transfusions- even the lifesaving ones.
There are no exemptions allowed under the JW religion.
In hospitals the JW elders come to bully dying people to refuse lifesaving blood transfusions- threatening all JWs that accept a lifesaving transfusion with divine punishment if they survive and being thrown out of the JW community with no contact ever allowed again with their JW families.

I'm not a JW, I don't agree with blood transfusions and would never accept one myself.
But I do believe that every adult has the right to choose.
Without any punishment threats, bullying or any person sitting in judgement playing God.
It sounds from your post that you agree with lifesaving blood transfusions and might decide to accept one if you were asked to choose.

So what advice would you give to a JW who asked you for advice about whether they should automatically obey those two JW rules?
To obey, choose for themselves or something else?
I understand your point now. But the problem is, and I don't mean to offend JW followers, but their beliefs don't make rationale sense the way Islam does. E.g. Islam allows exceptions in the event of life and death, amidst many other exceptions, e.g. woman are commanded to wear head scarfs, but if it means they may get killed (like post 9/11 in America where muslim women were getting attacked), then it is permissible for them to take it off, as one scholar stated. As Islam also says that you shouldn't do things that will bring harm on yourself.

What you need to acknowledge is my original point stating that these are not the same principles. Drinking alcohol is not a necessity, however, if it means life and death then it is allowed, because Islam tells us to rely on common sense. But JW beliefs hold that it's better to die than to accept blood. Which, to us Muslims makes no logical sense. I would explain this to a JW, but what they follow is up to them. Again, drinking alcohol just for fun isn't the same as accepting blood to save your life. To compare them is futile. Bear in mind, these people say that Jesus, who they claim to be God (and the son...), was killed by Romans. If your scripture tells you that God was actually killed by mere humans, then how can you follow that scripture? Not to mention they have many variations of their scriptures (how do they know which one is correct?) Their beliefs are not founded off solid principles and reasoning, but Islam is, so you can't apply Islamic understanding to their beliefs. Hence, you can't make comparisons.
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Anonymous #5
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#88
(Original post by Professional G)
Well religion better modernise or else, sooner or later, it’s going to die out. That’s what happens when ideals are unable to adapt to modern society
I agree with that, to some degree. There should be adaptation, but not to the point where you compromise your core beliefs.
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Plantagenet Crown
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#89
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(Original post by Anonymous)
1) Who told you 'in theory' it is possible to take so many that you get drunk? It is well known if you take certain medicines containing alcohol you won't get drunk.
It’s simple logic. If a pill contains x amount of alcohol it’s possible, in theory, to take 500 of them until you get drunk. And anyway, I already debunked that flawed logic.

2) Your second point isn't a valid argument, as the whole point of these rules are to stop these things happening in the first place, so that it stays hypothetical and doesn't become a reality amongst muslims. So you can't discard it on the bases that it's 'hypothetical'. And I've already told you how much damage alcohol does in society, so amongst those who drink, it's not hypothetical, it's reality.
No, my point is perfectly valid. Drinking doesn’t automatically get you drunk, therefore you can’t use a hypothetical to rationally substantiate a prohibition. Someone can drink and always stop before they’re tipsy, end of. There’s nothing wrong with starting it in the first place as long as self control is exercised. If you’re saying such a prohibition is in place to stop it then your god has failed miserably, as Muslims can and have always consumed alcohol.

Islam weighs out the pros and cons of things, and alcohol does far more damage to society than good. You need to acknowledge the effect of alcohol on society holistically, not just individuals. Just because some people can control themselves doesn't mean society is better off with alcohol than without.
No, this particular thread isn’t about society, it’s about a specific person. He’s not a bad Muslim for drinking and there’s no reason that it should negatively impact his life as long as he’s responsible with drink. Highlighting society at large is irrelevant to the issue.

'Because of this they'd be able to drink the whiskey that's left as it's not very likely they could get drunk on 1/5 of the original volume' -> and can you guarantee that they won't get drunk? Why should Islamic rationale be based off these subjective opinions given how much damage alcohol does to society.
The exact quantities are irrelevant and it’s an example I made off the top of my head. I’m sure it’s possible to calculate a proportion of a bottle’s volume that would make it impossible for someone to get drunk off that. But you’d still be against that, which undermines your entire claim about the alcohol tablets.

3) It's not just about OP, it's about all those other muslims who are also ignorant enough to take religious advice from people on TSR. Islam prohibits alcohol, end of. It's not something to debate about as the rules on this issue are clear as night and day.
You know, you could have just said from the start that Islam prohibits alcohol instead of concocting extremely flawed reasoning to try and justify it. And my reply is: I don’t care. A Muslim can still drink, be responsible with it and remain a Muslim. The OP has drunk, simple. So saying they shouldn’t have done it is not of much use as it’s already occurred. So therefore it is perfectly appropriate for us to comment on how to best manage alcohol consumption if that’s what he chooses to continue doing.

There's nothing wrong with free speech, but you should study these things before debating them. I don't mean that in a rude way, I'm just saying because I get tired of people giving their opinions and interpretations, saying there's no logic, when they've not studied the religion properly.
Free speech means we can comment on it even if we haven’t studied it. It’s silly to expect people to only comment on a subject they’ve spent years studying: if that were the case we wouldn’t be able to comment on much.
Last edited by Plantagenet Crown; 3 weeks ago
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Plantagenet Crown
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#90
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#90
(Original post by agentofchaos)
whats even 21st century? In few decades, half of the global population will be muslim.
Im personally fine with restrictions of any religion. If THE 21st century (world of accelerated moral relativism and beginning of anti realism) is invaded by a religion which is highly likely, I will side with the latter.
Nonsense. Muslims are not even 1/3 of the global population and will certainly not constitute half the globe in a few decades, that’s not possible. Even the most successful religion of all time hasn’t managed to claim half the world’s people so there’s no way Islam will ever manage that in a world that’s more and more secular and less superstitious.
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Sammylou40
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#91
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#91
(Original post by londonmyst)
Why are you feeling guilty?
There is no compulsion in your religion and you are advised not to pray when you are drunk.

I have friends from six sects of islam that choose either to not consume alcohol or to drink it.
None of them feel guilty; they make their choice, stick with it and focus upon doing as many good deed to help other people as they can.
You have the choice how you practice your religion, how your interpret religious scripture and whether you want to consume alcohol.
Don't make a big issue of it.
I second this and just want to chip in one more thing.
don’t allow yourself to be criticised by others. It’s not their job to judge you.
a perfect muslim maybe. But one doesn’t exist
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londonmyst
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#92
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#92
(Original post by Anonymous)
Unfortunately a great proportion of society lack that self control. Hence, Islam has sufficient wisdom to acknowledge this, hence, prohibiting alcohol. If we go by your statement, then why have law and order? Why have cameras to detect speed when you have speed limitations on roads? Why not just rely on people to have the self control to keep to the correct speed? What's the point of police? Why not just rely on people to not commit crime via self control?
Look up the stats and information for disease, domestic abuse, road traffic accidents, public misconduct, hospital admissions, depression, addiction, in relation to alcohol. Anyone who educates themselves on these things will understand very clearly why Islam prohibited alcohol.

Look at Americans, 50% of Americans are obese. They sure have self-control over their appetites.
Your first sentence highlights the main problem in so many different societies, nations and spheres of life.
The appalling collective failure to emphasize the need for adults to demonstrate basic self control and exercise willpower in their day to day lives.
It only serves to erode that sense of personal responsibility that comes with being an adult, resulting in a huge number of immature adults that have never been taught the importance of demonstrating self control.
There is far too much making feeble excuses, looking the other way pretending not to see and occasionally resorting to totalitarian prohibitions.

Most people are law abiding and most drivers will observe the specified speed limitations- simply because they do not seek to act like criminals.
Speed cameras tend to be more about raising significant sums in revenue than anything else and are often placed in areas where speed restrictions are not clearly indicated.
The police exist to protect national security and public order from the most evil of individuals.
Not the typical swarms of idiots, bad mannered jerks or petty antisocial troublemakers- evil, dangerous individuals.

I don't agree with the Jamie Oliver-esque food police or alcohol prohibition era fans.
Secular or religious.
Mormons are banned by their religion from drinking all hot drinks except herbal tea and anything containing caffeine too.
I draw the line at illegal narcotics like cannabis, cocaine and all the rest.
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Plantagenet Crown
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#93
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(Original post by agentofchaos)
A bit of exaggeration was acceptable i thought. My apologies.
But I just PRAY to ALLAH that it happens. Don't get me wrong, i am not a muslin for now. It is the last hope against the modernity as I said in my previous post.
Allah isn’t real so praying to him will do nothing, and he’ll certainly not be able to bypass feasible population growths and evolution.
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Sammylou40
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#94
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#94
(Original post by londonmyst)
Your first sentence highlights the main problem in so many different societies, nations and spheres of life.
The appalling collective failure to emphasize the need for adults to demonstrate basic self control and exercise willpower in their day to day lives.
It only serves to erode that sense of personal responsibility that comes with being an adult, resulting in a huge number of immature adults that have never been taught the importance of demonstrating self control.
There is far too much making feeble excuses, looking the other way pretending not to see and occasionally resorting to totalitarian prohibitions.

Most people are law abiding and most drivers will observe the specified speed limitations- simply because they do not seek to act like criminals.
Speed cameras tend to be more about raising significant sums in revenue than anything else and are often placed in areas where speed restrictions are not clearly indicated.
The police exist to protect national security and public order from the most evil of individuals.
Not the typical swarms of idiots, bad mannered jerks or petty antisocial troublemakers- evil, dangerous individuals.

I don't agree with the Jamie Oliver-esque food police or alcohol prohibition era fans.
Secular or religious.
Mormons are banned by their religion from drinking all hot drinks except herbal tea and anything containing caffeine too.
I draw the line at illegal narcotics like cannabis, cocaine and all the rest.
A wise head on young shoulders...
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laughinglad999
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#95
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#95
(Original post by Anonymous)
as the title says
I have strong faith altho I don't pray as often as I should but I've started drinking since I came to uni in September and always regret it after I do it.
idk why I do it, i feel like it's to fit in. I'll always say ok I'm not gonna drink tonight if I'm going out but will always end up doing so. then when I come home I feel so **** after the night out thinking wtf am I doing. I want to pray but then my prayers are invalid.
any help or advice is appreciated cause I feel so **** about it
You are not a bad Muslim for having a drink and your prayers are not invalid who said that -there is lots of muslims that come back to there faith later on in life you are at university you are not in prison l know there is lots of muslims in prison in the uk but they still pray 5 times a day and you dont need to drink to fit in for no one you have free will so use your free will the way you want to use it pray to allah and are you still eating halal food ?
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Onde
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#96
The qur'an doesn't actually forbid drinking. It forbids getting drunk.
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Anonymous #5
#97
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#97
(Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
Free speech means we can comment on it even if we haven’t studied it. It’s silly to expect people to only comment on a subject they’ve spent years studying: if that were the case we wouldn’t be able to comment on much.
500 pills would kill you, so no, you wouldn't get drunk. Again, my points are being misunderstood. Islam is not a religion for 1 individual, it's about society as a whole. So yes, society is relevant.
I'm not going to waste anymore of my time arguing with your flawed logic. The fact you think it's fine to comment on things you're ignorant about shows your level of intellect. This is why society has so many problems, because of the arrogance of people to give their opinions on things they know nothing about.
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asif007
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#98
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No such thing as a bad Muslim. You are entitled to practise your religion flexibly as you see fit and you don’t need to tick all the boxes. You can still choose to identify as Muslim if you wish. But be honest with people about who you are and what you do. Don’t be one of those Muslims that takes everyone else for a fool by drinking alcohol in front of people then putting on the hijab/praying 5 times a day/preaching the Qur’an and pretending like nothing has happened. People aren’t stupid, they will respect you more if you admit openly that you don’t follow all the rules of Islam, and that’s ok. Like I said, no such thing as a bad Muslim but there’s also no such thing as a perfect Muslim. Anyone who claims there is, is being an idiot. What’s worse is lying about yourself: people don’t like liars.

I’m from a Muslim family but never had a religious upbringing. Nor do I pray or fast, and my parents don’t either. I’m Jatt Punjabi and I identify with this part of my culture more than having the label of Muslim. I drink alcohol and have had sex before marriage, but I’m open about it with people and especially other Muslims. The ones that give me judgmental looks are the ones I know to steer clear of. The ones that don’t give a **** are the ones I trust more and become friends with.
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Plantagenet Crown
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#99
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(Original post by Anonymous)
500 pills would kill you, so no, you wouldn't get drunk.
Again, a random number. It could kill you as well as getting you drunk in the process, and there could also be a lower number that gets you drunk without killing you.

Again, my points are being misunderstood. Islam is not a religion for 1 individual, it's about society as a whole. So yes, society is relevant.
No, society isn’t relevant to this thread and who my post was addressing.

I'm not going to waste anymore of my time arguing with your flawed logic.
You have utterly failed to point out a single flaw in my logic. Yours on the other hand is deeply fallacious, with us discovering that you’re against alcohol even if it doesn’t make you drunk, thus debunking your premise.

The fact you think it's fine to comment on things you're ignorant about shows your level of intellect. This is why society has so many problems, because of the arrogance of people to give their opinions on things they know nothing about.
I was speaking in generalities. I am personally not ignorant regarding Islam. And yes, it is fine, obviously. It’s how people learn and engage with others. What’s absurd is asserting that you need to become a scholar on any subject you ever want to talk about. Society has always had problems, but in the West we’re living in the most peaceful and prosperous era in history.
Last edited by Plantagenet Crown; 3 weeks ago
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Anonymous #5
#100
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#100
(Original post by londonmyst)
Your first sentence highlights the main problem in so many different societies, nations and spheres of life.
The appalling collective failure to emphasize the need for adults to demonstrate basic self control and exercise willpower in their day to day lives.
It only serves to erode that sense of personal responsibility that comes with being an adult, resulting in a huge number of immature adults that have never been taught the importance of demonstrating self control.
There is far too much making feeble excuses, looking the other way pretending not to see and occasionally resorting to totalitarian prohibitions.

Most people are law abiding and most drivers will observe the specified speed limitations- simply because they do not seek to act like criminals.
Speed cameras tend to be more about raising significant sums in revenue than anything else and are often placed in areas where speed restrictions are not clearly indicated.
The police exist to protect national security and public order from the most evil of individuals.
Not the typical swarms of idiots, bad mannered jerks or petty antisocial troublemakers- evil, dangerous individuals.

I don't agree with the Jamie Oliver-esque food police or alcohol prohibition era fans.
Secular or religious.
Mormons are banned by their religion from drinking all hot drinks except herbal tea and anything containing caffeine too.
I draw the line at illegal narcotics like cannabis, cocaine and all the rest.
Your argument only proves my point, that many nations and societies have a problem with self control. I don't see what the issue is with not being allowed to drink. At a societal level, more harm comes than good. Just because one person can drink responsibly doesn't mean you just ignore the impact alcohol has on society.

And your comment on safe drivers is incorrect, I've been driving a long time and I can tell you that most people go above the speed limit, and only slow down when there's cameras, and there's many idiots on the road. I've had firefighters come into my school many years past on many occasions detailing the many damages that dangerous drivers cause. I would suggest you actually look into these things properly instead of relying on your opinions.

No, police are there to enforce law and order because many people will commit crime otherwise. Study British history, before police were introduced, crime rate was through the roof. Killing, rape, theft, bounty hunting were common practices. A woman couldn't walk down the road without fear of getting kidnapped and raped. After police were introduced to stop people from relying on their self-control, only then did crime begin to become controlled. And it doesn't matter how many individuals commit crime. If it's enough to cause significant damage to society, then those crimes are bad enough to be banned. Same logic applies to alcohol, it's banned because at a societal level, it causes more harm than good.

Mormon beliefs has nothing to do with Islam.

Why don't you look up the damage alcohol has done to society first, look up the figures as I mentioned, before you discuss these matters.
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