fallen_acorns
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#21
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#21
The Uk isn't full geographically speaking, although population density is higher than I would like.

There are a lot of issues with migrants, but being 'full' isn't one of them.

The issues with public services are far far wider than just migration alone. The strain that migrants put on our services is a fraction compared to the massive massive strain that the general public has put on them by our warped societal ideas. For example - I would wager that the strain on the NHS placed by the generational breakdown between British people (not caring for their elderly, not supporting their youth) is multiple magnitudes bigger than the strain put on it by migrants.

I do have big worries about migration - but they are mostly cultural. I don't like to see the culture I love declining, and I think that mass migration is exhilarating a lot of the societal problems we have as a nation. But those problems still exist, and will still exist even if you get rid of migration.
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Napp
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#22
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#22
(Original post by abcthe123)
Mass migration has decreased wages for low skilled labourers,
Not overly, besides the UK is in desperate need for such labourers, not mind the semi-skilled ones such as in the building trade.
put increased strain on public services like schools (a quarter of births each year in the UK are to Non-UK citizens), prisons (EU Migrants cost on average £140 million each year to the UK Taxpayer).
I like how youre blaming 'dem pesky foreigners for what is manifestly a government problem. The maths is quite clear on the matter migrants are national benefactors. If the government and the councils cant be arsed to reinvest said funds into the country then its quite obvious who is at fault.
The strain on housing, (if the UK maintains it's current immigration figures until 2040, houses will literally need to be built every 4 minutes day and night to sustain it).
Once again you seem to be blaming the wrong people... Never mind the fact the the country needs an expanding population in the coming years just to basically function, at any rate im rather sure it isnt the migrants who are hoarding vast amounts of land to flip it for a profit, arent bothering to invest in housing and who most irksomely keep on with this damn nimby nonsense then have the damn gal to whine and bleat about there not being enough housing when they themselves keep vetoing the local plans for housing expansion.
That's not even including the severe cultural/social problems that will (and already have) risen.
Like? None of these cultural mismatches are especially new and Britain has dealt with it quite well for centuries - its rather par for the course having to accept ethnics in society if you once owned most of the globe - never mind this reasoning rather falls apart when when we look at the large numbers of europeans (whom you were just whining about in this post) who have a rather similar culture to our own.
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fallen_acorns
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Napp)
Not overly, besides the UK is in desperate need for such labourers, not mind the semi-skilled ones such as in the building trade.

I like how youre blaming 'dem pesky foreigners for what is manifestly a government problem. The maths is quite clear on the matter migrants are national benefactors. If the government and the councils cant be arsed to reinvest said funds into the country then its quite obvious who is at fault.

Once again you seem to be blaming the wrong people... Never mind the fact the the country needs an expanding population in the coming years just to basically function, at any rate im rather sure it isnt the migrants who are hoarding vast amounts of land to flip it for a profit, arent bothering to invest in housing and who most irksomely keep on with this damn nimby nonsense then have the damn gal to whine and bleat about there not being enough housing when they themselves keep vetoing the local plans for housing expansion.

Like? None of these cultural mismatches are especially new and Britain has dealt with it quite well for centuries - its rather par for the course having to accept ethnics in society if you once owned most of the globe - never mind this reasoning rather falls apart when when we look at the large numbers of europeans (whom you were just whining about in this post) who have a rather similar culture to our own.
I agree with parts of this, especially your criticisms of the government, and the fact that we do need a rising population and a higher proportion of young people to ballance our aging population, which if local people are not having enough children, must come from abroad.

But I take issue with: "migrants are national benefactors" Economically yes, its 100% true that migration as a whole brings in more money than it costs. They are a net gain to our accounts, hence why even conservatives who are against it for societal reasons have never dared lower it, because their economic desires triumph their societal ones, and they know what would happen if we cut it.

But there are plenty of other issues with migration and how it impacts communities that need to be considered as well. For example, migrants are far less likely to engage with and support community-based and family based actions (the second obviously is largely because migrants are less likely than the general public to have a family at all). Our communities have always supported themselves with a mix of community lead work and support as well as goverment led tax-funded programs.. these days we seem to forget the former and focus entirely on the later, and on what goverment will do for us, rather than what our communites can do for themselves. What happens with migration though is that yes they are a net-gain on the govermental side (whether the goverment chooses to spend that gain is obviously questionable) but they are a net loss on the community side.

They are far less likely to get involved with community based facilities and organisations, with a few big exceptions. The big exceptions are religious communities. Migrants are more likely to engage with churches or their own faith-based community activity, and they are far more likely to form strong and supporting communities within their own minorities. But within white-british-majority community structures? They do less than local individuals do, and that leaves one of the three big pillars of society (goverment, family, community) lacking. Its why the working-class feel like they have been hit hardest by migration. They have always been far more invested in the community branch than the middle class, who focus far more on family, something which migration impacts far less. Its obviously not just the fault of migrants, plenty of the reason why they involve themselves less, will be the prejudice/reaction they face from locals, but the fact remains that if you accept that its not just goverment money that keeps communities ticking over, and mass migration is not universally bennifactory for british communities.

For me, the drive should be to slow down migration, and encourage more people to raise children. We need the population increase, but I think currently we seek to much of the answer from abroad. We are using other nations education systems and youth as a crutch to keep us going, rather than solving the problem internally. Give time for migrants to absorb themselves into communities, and for currently segregated communities to mix, and then migration really will be a true net gain for the nation on all levels.
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Napp
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#24
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#24
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
I agree with parts of this, especially your criticisms of the government, and the fact that we do need a rising population and a higher proportion of young people to ballance our aging population, which if local people are not having enough children, must come from abroad.

But I take issue with: "migrants are national benefactors" Economically yes, its 100% true that migration as a whole brings in more money than it costs. They are a net gain to our accounts, hence why even conservatives who are against it for societal reasons have never dared lower it, because their economic desires triumph their societal ones, and they know what would happen if we cut it.
Mmm true there, i guess it really depends how you look at be it on a national or a local scale and so on so forth.
But there are plenty of other issues with migration and how it impacts communities that need to be considered as well. For example, migrants are far less likely to engage with and support community-based and family based actions (the second obviously is largely because migrants are less likely than the general public to have a family at all). Our communities have always supported themselves with a mix of community lead work and support as well as goverment led tax-funded programs.. these days we seem to forget the former and focus entirely on the later, and on what goverment will do for us, rather than what our communites can do for themselves. What happens with migration though is that yes they are a net-gain on the govermental side (whether the goverment chooses to spend that gain is obviously questionable) but they are a net loss on the community side.
Well made comment there.
Although in fairness, and this is just from my experience of course, the migrants i've come across have all usually been very involved in the community be it from when i lived in the rural home counties where the local migrants (admittedly rather few to start with) were usually involved in various ways for the local villages be it fundraising, running/helping out in neighbourly schemes etc.
With that being said i take your point that this is certainly not always the case.
An intteresting way to look at it though is viewing it from the opposite angle in that British expats/migrants abroad tend to do exactly the same. In Malaysia and New Zealand, to use two countries i'm familiar with, they tend to balkanise themselves (much more in the former than the latter though).
They are far less likely to get involved with community based facilities and organisations, with a few big exceptions. The big exceptions are religious communities. Migrants are more likely to engage with churches or their own faith-based community activity, and they are far more likely to form strong and supporting communities within their own minorities. But within white-british-majority community structures? They do less than local individuals do, and that leaves one of the three big pillars of society (goverment, family, community) lacking. Its why the working-class feel like they have been hit hardest by migration. They have always been far more invested in the community branch than the middle class, who focus far more on family, something which migration impacts far less. Its obviously not just the fault of migrants, plenty of the reason why they involve themselves less, will be the prejudice/reaction they face from locals, but the fact remains that if you accept that its not just goverment money that keeps communities ticking over, and mass migration is not universally bennifactory for british communities.
Again, well put. I've noticed though that this only tends to occur when they, pardon the phrasing, congregate en-masse such as in, for example, Tower Hamlets but then in such instances they tend to be in such a concentration that their own community work and such starts acting in such a way to nullify the 'ill' effects, to a point.
But either way you do have a valid point. And much better made than some of the other users here.
For me, the drive should be to slow down migration, and encourage more people to raise children. We need the population increase, but I think currently we seek to much of the answer from abroad. We are using other nations education systems and youth as a crutch to keep us going, rather than solving the problem internally. Give time for migrants to absorb themselves into communities, and for currently segregated communities to mix, and then migration really will be a true net gain for the nation on all levels.
Aye, its an interesting one trying to balance the competing demands and one the government and councils seem to have made a spectacular hatchetjob on.
An interesting thing i've noticed though is people tend to neglect to mention which particular migrants they are reffering to and tend to put them all into a homogeneous blob. With the brexit thing being a perfect case in point for a lot of migrant bashing where a lot of the complaints seemed to be less about migration in a general sense as opposed to very specific focal points for it i.e. the Middle East and Africa.
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fallen_acorns
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Napp)
Mmm true there, i guess it really depends how you look at be it on a national or a local scale and so on so forth.

Well made comment there.
Although in fairness, and this is just from my experience of course, the migrants i've come across have all usually been very involved in the community be it from when i lived in the rural home counties where the local migrants (admittedly rather few to start with) were usually involved in various ways for the local villages be it fundraising, running/helping out in neighbourly schemes etc.
With that being said i take your point that this is certainly not always the case.
An intteresting way to look at it though is viewing it from the opposite angle in that British expats/migrants abroad tend to do exactly the same. In Malaysia and New Zealand, to use two countries i'm familiar with, they tend to balkanise themselves (much more in the former than the latter though).

Again, well put. I've noticed though that this only tends to occur when they, pardon the phrasing, congregate en-masse such as in, for example, Tower Hamlets but then in such instances they tend to be in such a concentration that their own community work and such starts acting in such a way to nullify the 'ill' effects, to a point.
But either way you do have a valid point. And much better made than some of the other users here.

Aye, its an interesting one trying to balance the competing demands and one the government and councils seem to have made a spectacular hatchetjob on.
An interesting thing i've noticed though is people tend to neglect to mention which particular migrants they are reffering to and tend to put them all into a homogeneous blob. With the brexit thing being a perfect case in point for a lot of migrant bashing where a lot of the complaints seemed to be less about migration in a general sense as opposed to very specific focal points for it i.e. the Middle East and Africa.
Your completly right about british migrants abroad. I see it all the time here in China - they isolate themselves and form their own little communities, I would argue, more than other nations migrants do. Your also right about mixing migrant groups - its difficult to talk about them as one big bulk because migrant cultures are so diverse with how they interact with the british minority. For example people like to hold up the East asian migrant communities as a success story, because economically they do very well. But culturally they tend to intergrate less than say afro-carribean communities who may perform less well economically, but intergrate into british culture far better.

Obviously there will always be exceptions, and there are plenty of migrants who both contribute massivly economically and on a community level. I think the big job of reasonably minded people on migration is to blame the goverment and hold them to account for making reasonable policies. Its never the migrants fault themselves. People will take any opertunity to make the best life that they can. I'm a migrant now, and when I return to the UK next year my wife will be, both of us just like all other migrants aren't looking to hurt communities or damage countries they are just trying to navigate through life as best they can. Instead of getting annoyed at them, its focusing on the goverments - making sure that the torries are equally willing to support migrants and intergration as they are to keep the numbers high to line their own pockets, and making sure that the labour party are going to be reasonable with the numbers and not just think more=better.
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epicnm
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#26
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#26
(Original post by richard10012)
Why do some many people want to move to the U.K.? Where I live, I don’t hear People speaking English, I hear African, polish, Spanish. Has immigration caused the housing crisis/ high rents/ doctor shortage/ overcrowded on public transport. I feel sorry for teachers who have so many children with different language. The U.K. is going to have the biggest population in Europe in 10 years time.
I’m going to assume you’re English by your xenophobic anti-immigration post.
1. African is not a language which can be spoken, it is an origin.
2. Immigration is collective and the examples in which you have given are grammatically incorrect. Therefore it would be “crises”, not “crisis”, “shortages” not “shortage” and immigration cannot cause “the overcrowded on public transport”; “overcrowded” is an adjective that cannot be “on public transport”, it would be “Overcrowded public transport”.
3. You forgot the question mark after “transport”.
4. “Children with different language” is grammatically incorrect- it would be “children who speak different languages”.

Please correct your own English before complaining about “not hearing other people speaking English”.
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Napp
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#27
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#27
(Original post by epicnm)
I’m going to assume you’re English by your xenophobic anti-immigration post.
1. African is not a language which can be spoken, it is an origin.
2. Immigration is collective and the examples in which you have given are grammatically incorrect. Therefore it would be “crises”, not “crisis”, “shortages” not “shortage” and immigration cannot cause “the overcrowded on public transport”; “overcrowded” is an adjective that cannot be “on public transport”, it would be “Overcrowded public transport”.
3. You forgot the question mark after “transport”.
4. “Children with different language” is grammatically incorrect- it would be “children who speak different languages”.

Please correct your own English before complaining about “not hearing other people speaking English”.
i've always found it deeply amusing when people complain about those pesky foreigners not speaking english properly. I mean aside from the fact learning English (compared to many other languages) is like being mugged in a dark ally, most foreigners ive met speak better english than half the english themselves :lol: Especially those from essex and the north..
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ByEeek
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#28
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#28
(Original post by PunjabiCookie)
Statistics show that around 2100 the UK will have the largest population in Europe and the biggest economy?

Is this going to happen?

no-one knows...
Fret ye not. I looked at some different statistics that the vast majority of us will be dead by 2100 so you don't need to worry.
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MrMusician95
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Obolinda)
Speaking "African"...
Lmao that's what I said.
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