So Mr Corbyn is neutral. Watch

ColinDent
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#21
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#21
(Original post by bubblecat)
well if you’re working class i sure hope you aren’t voting tory!

i’m also working class, you seem to have a complex where whatever you think goes for everyone thats like you.

to me, it seems like you’ve absorbed all the tory/bbc propaganda against Corbyn and the labour party. a pity.

i know i’m going to be disappointed. Boris Johnson is absolutely awful but people will still vote tory. sadly, the majority of the UK seem to be thick as bricks.
(Original post by DSilva)
We will do. You may well be right.

But there really is no position they can take on Brexit that people won't be up in arms about.

Maybe to you Brexit is the most important thing, but to me issues like healthcard, education and housing are far more important.

But please, stop with the whole 'ordinary people think x' malarkey. As if people who vote Labour aren't 'ordinary people'. More than anything, it's patronising to those you claim to be the voice of.
I'm not saying that ordinary people don't vote for labour as that would be ridiculous, but a whole lot less do now as it has become a much more middle class party.
If Labour do win the upcoming election then I will gladly admit that I was wrong, but it genuinely is not the impression that I am getting through speaking to people of all backgrounds from all over the country.
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bubblecat
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(Original post by ColinDent)
I'm not saying that ordinary people don't vote for labour as that would be ridiculous, but a whole lot less do now as it has become a much more middle class party.
If Labour do win the upcoming election then I will gladly admit that I was wrong, but it genuinely is not the impression that I am getting through speaking to people of all backgrounds from all over the country.
its funny you say Labour are becoming a “middle class party” so that means people wont vote for them, as if the Conservative party aren’t the establishment.
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DSilva
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(Original post by ColinDent)
I'm not saying that ordinary people don't vote for labour as that would be ridiculous, but a whole lot less do now as it has become a much more middle class party.
If Labour do win the upcoming election then I will gladly admit that I was wrong, but it genuinely is not the impression that I am getting through speaking to people of all backgrounds from all over the country.
That's largely due to the long term trend of traditional working class jobs disappearing, and with them much of the trade union movement.

But what makes these people the quintessentially 'ordinary people'? What makes middle class left leaning voters not 'ordinary'?

It's quite telling that the media only ever seems to care about working class voters when they're right wing or pro Brexit. Suddenly they become the 'left behind' who need listening to. Yet when those same people voted Labour every time the media didn't seem to care about them.
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Possibly this
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Let's remember what happened the first time around on the original European referendum, not in 2016 but in 1975.

In the 70's, the Conservatives were broadly pro-EEA and Labour were mainly Anti-EEA, we joined in 1973 due to at the time Prime minister Ted Heath. He gradually became less popular and an election was called for February 1974. Now whilst both parties were split on the European issue, the Labour Party had a more even divide so Labour leader and prime minister from 1964-70, Harold Wilson never took a solid stance on the issue but supported a European referendum and made it part of the manifesto.

Neither party got an overall majority but Labour was the biggest party. As no majority government could be called, there was another election in October '74 where Harold Wilson won a majority and called a referendum in 1975, staying neutral on the issue and letting his own MPs campaigned as they wish. A large majority voted to stay in the EEA and the issue was largely put to bed for several decades.

Jeremy Corbyn looked at this and really never swung one way or the other as Labour leader. Let's remember, as its often talked about, there's a lot of Labour MPs in leave constituencies, many of whom support leaving because that was the will of their constituents however there's other Labour MPs who are in heavy remain areas who are doing the same. Labour taking a position one way or the other isolates and ignores each group of MPs and constituents.

Personally I think this is the best thing for many of the parties to do, as we've seen a remain culling in the Tories, a Lib Dem stance that only revokation will do. They are both shutting out swathes of voters on the issue of the decade. I'm not begrudging of people supporting either of those parties but as myself a working class person who remembers the impacts of austerity growing up and looking how the former coalition parties have become increasingly exclusive sects since the European issue reared its head again, I know I can't.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Possibly this)
Let's remember what happened the first time around on the original European referendum, not in 2016 but in 1975.

In the 70's, the Conservatives were broadly pro-EEA and Labour were mainly Anti-EEA, we joined in 1973 due to at the time Prime minister Ted Heath. He gradually became less popular and an election was called for February 1974. Now whilst both parties were split on the European issue, the Labour Party had a more even divide so Labour leader and prime minister from 1964-70, Harold Wilson never took a solid stance on the issue but supported a European referendum and made it part of the manifesto.

Neither party got an overall majority but Labour was the biggest party. As no majority government could be called, there was another election in October '74 where Harold Wilson won a majority and called a referendum in 1975, staying neutral on the issue and letting his own MPs campaigned as they wish. A large majority voted to stay in the EEA and the issue was largely put to bed for several decades.

Jeremy Corbyn looked at this and really never swung one way or the other as Labour leader. Let's remember, as its often talked about, there's a lot of Labour MPs in leave constituencies, many of whom support leaving because that was the will of their constituents however there's other Labour MPs who are in heavy remain areas who are doing the same. Labour taking a position one way or the other isolates and ignores each group of MPs and constituents.

Personally I think this is the best thing for many of the parties to do, as we've seen a remain culling in the Tories, a Lib Dem stance that only revokation will do. They are both shutting out swathes of voters on the issue of the decade. I'm not begrudging of people supporting either of those parties but as myself a working class person who remembers the impacts of austerity growing up and looking how the former coalition parties have become increasingly exclusive sects since the European issue reared its head again, I know I can't.
Harold Wilson did not campaign but he did express his preference.
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QE2
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(Original post by ColinDent)
A politician has got to take a stance on such a big issue, remaining neutral is not an option.
I've said this before but sitting on the fence will lose him votes.
Ok, explain what difference Corbyn's personal stance on the vote would make.
A deal will be negotiated. A referendum will be held between that deal and Remain.
What has Corbyn's personal view got to do with how individuals will vote? Surely their vote will depend on whether they like the deal or favour Remain, not on what a particular leader thinks? People don't expect a judge to support a verdict before the trial.
Seriously, I fail to see what the problem is. It's as if you disapprove of not being told what to think.
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QE2
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(Original post by DSilva)
It also means you have credibility to stay on whatever the result.
Exactly! If the PM campaigns for one position and it loses, he has mo legitimacy. Remaining neutral is the obviously sensible, statesmanlike position.
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SMEGGGY
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Why doesn't he resign , he's not wanted, he's a selfish stubborn backward ****
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QE2
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Because we all know he does have a preference as he has said countless times prior to becoming the leader of the opposition but now hides behind spurious pretences that he's neutral on the subject, he does this for one reason only which is to garner votes from people on both sides of the argument.
I am saying that outside of a highly politicised, momentum bubble, most people will see that as weak and it will cost Labour a significant amount of votes.
But carry on arguing it's fine in this echo chamber if you wish.
Referees usually support a particular team, but when they referee a match they discard personal preferences and do their job, even handedly. Why would you not want that it politics? Why is serving personal vested interests better than serving the greater good?
From people I've spoken to and comments in the media, it seems to have been very well accepted. It is only in the highly politicised, Hard Brexit bubble that people see a problem with it.
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QE2
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(Original post by ColinDent)
I know he's trying to do that, as it happens I would be more likely to vote for him if he stuck to his much vaunted principles and came out fully for leave,
So you would vote Labour, with their 2nd referendum pledge, if Corbyn said he'd support Leave in that referendum, even though the party as a whole is resolutely Remain? That makes sense.

but being "neutral" on this matter is not an option,
Of course it's an option. And it's an option he has taken.

it means leavers like myself will not vote for Labour because there's a chance the referendum result will never be enacted
Wrong. A Labour government would mean the referendum result would definitely be enacted. Just a more up-to-date, reasonable, valid referendum.
But of course, the anti-democracy Brexit Brigade don't want the people to have a say.

and many remainers thinking they cannot vote for labour because there's more chance of the referendum being reversed by voting elsewhere.
Lolo! Do you really think that Labour voters actually consider a third party capable of winning the election?

It also brings into question just how much effort will go into these future negotiations and how likely the EU would be to give us a better deal when there is likely to be an option of us not leaving if the public don't like said deal, it's a **** negotiating stance to take up.
TheEU had already offered a better deal than the one Johnson negotiated, that's what's so ridiculous about the whole thing. Especially as it is clear that Johnson doesn't even know what his deal actually entails!

And also yes I know I'm using this echo chamber although there are not that many on here that hold my views about this particular matter, but my point is about the wider public most of whom are not as into the intricacies of day to day politics.
Which defeats your point anyway. If people generally aren't into the details and will vote along partisan lines, the nuances of Corbyn's position won't make any difference. To those who do understand the issues, they mostly seem to look on his stance favourably.
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QE2
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(Original post by ColinDent)
I have lost what little respect I had for Mr Corbyn because of his refusal to back up what he has always stood for with regards brexit,
That's because you don't understand politics, outside of the binary Brexit issue. An effective PM must be able to put aside personal preferences in favour of what is best for the country. That is precisely what Corbyn is doing. Johnson, on the other hand, is only interested in satisfying the vested interests of his backers.

My respect and support for Corbyn had fallen considerably over the last couple of years. Last night's performance restored that somewhat.
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QE2
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(Original post by ColinDent)
working class people like myself who have become tired of labour avoiding any real answer as to whether they wish to stay in the EU or leave it as per the referendum,
Every Labour supporter I know (and that is quite a few) knew the Labour Party was pro Remain. Never any doubt. It was only the PLP leadership position that was uncertain, and that has now been clarified in an eminently sensible fashion.

I know a great many of us and I do not know a single person that intends to vote Labour, even those of us that are Labour voters.
Like I say let's see for certain which of us is correct on the 12th, but I have a feeling that you may end up disappointed.
So who are these "Labour supporters" going to vote for if not Labour? It can't be Tory, because no genuine Labour supporter would ever vote Tory. There is too much fundamental difference in their worldview. So as the only relevant issue is Brexit, I guess they must be voting Brexit Party, which seems meaningless as anything other than a protest vote.
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QE2
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(Original post by ColinDent)
We will see on the 12th 😉
Remember that the most important issue is that "the people are mostly idiots".
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londonmyst
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Actually I do- Mr. Corbyn has plenty of other issues he prioritises above Remain/Leave the EU.
The decision represents a godsend for the Lib Dems and Conservative Party.
In an election where the main considerations about which party to vote for primarily seem to revolve around: stop brexit or stop corbyn.
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by QE2)
Exactly! If the PM campaigns for one position and it loses, he has mo legitimacy. Remaining neutral is the obviously sensible, statesmanlike position.
A Pm should loose their legitmacy if the public vote against them.. not taking a position, and justifying it by saying 'well being neurtral means I can't befored out if I support the loosing side' is cowardice.

Strong leadership unites people. Its a key eliment in bringing people who have very different opinions together. It was Camerons weak leadership that got us into this mess.. he couldn't control his own party, and couldn't push forward his own vision so he decided to give the decision to the public, and he then suffered justly and honestly when he lost.

Corbyn is doing the same thing, he can't manage to balance the two sides of his party - just as cameron couldn't, and hes facing a split voting base just as cameron was.. the only difference between him and cameron is he thinks he has a get-out-of-jail card by not actually coming out one way or another.

What we need, for either side, leave or remain, is a leader who can bring people together behind their vision, as good leaders do.. not everyone, but the majority. What corbyn is doing is precesily the oposite, in the vacum caused by his lack of leadership, more arguing/devision will grow.
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QE2
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(Original post by ColinDent)
I'm not saying that ordinary people don't vote for labour as that would be ridiculous, but a whole lot less do now as it has become a much more middle class party.
So which party are all these staunchly working class ex-Labour voters moving to now that they are unhappy that Labour has become a bit middle class?
The Tories? Really? lol! That's like saying because you don't like how they've increased the strength of your favourite beer, you'll start taking heroin instead.
Can't be Brexit because they literally don't have any policies and have a fascist as a leader.
Greens would be the obvious choice for any socialist - so should we be expecting a big upturn in the Green vote?
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by QE2)
Referees usually support a particular team, but when they referee a match they discard personal preferences and do their job, even handedly. Why would you not want that it politics?
because he isn't the referee.. he is the captain of one of the teams.

To use your sports analogy, it would be like the captain of one team saying "Well, we are going to see what happens, and I'm going to remain neutral to the result", that way if my team looses.. I am not accoutable and I can still keep being the captain.

We don't want a referee to take our country forward, we want a captain who will actual provide leadership and push for what they believe in.

And what they believe in does matter, its lovely to say that they would act entirely impartially, but in reality people don't and their own biases do come into play. Mogg for example can claim that were he the PM none of his catholic principles against abortion and homosexuality would matter.. and hes right that he wouldn't outlaw abortion, but you can bet that the bias he holds would influence policies, debates and proposals in smaller more nuanced ways. Just the same with Corbyn, if he is the leader, what he believes does matter. It matters to a nation what their leader believes in, as well as what it does.

To be impartial somewhat, Boris isn't much better because it seems like he believes in nothing other than power.
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QE2
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Harold Wilson did not campaign but he did express his preference.
So just like Corbyn then. Or are you claiming that he has always hidden is personal position on the EU?
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QE2
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(Original post by SMEGGGY)
Why doesn't he resign , he's not wanted, he's a selfish stubborn backward ****
Prime Ministers rarely resign.
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QE2
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Strong leadership unites people.
Ah, the Hitler and Mussolini argument. Kinda appropriate really.
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