The Student Room Group

Defence spending

Why isn't more being made of the terrible state of our armed forces during this election? We're facing growing threats from Russia and China and yet Labour/SNP want to scrap trident and the Tories are talking of cutting the army to 65,000 and leasing a new flat-top to the USA!!! This is completely crazy! Sadly it seems as if the prospect of another major world conflict during the coming decades is growing, and the UK is not going to be prepared. I do not feel confident that the West would emerge as the victors next time...

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As a South Korean, to describe Britain’s security, it is perfectly safe. Russian threat is just meaningless since they can’t even beat Ukraine. You have all fancy navies to joint-strike China with allies in East Asia such as South Korea, Japan and USA. You have far more economical problems then security. Considering investing to arms is so inefficient to revive the economy, it is better to cut defence budget and use them for debt repayment or economic development.
And, I am so sure that Europe will not be major frontline of WWIII if it happens. Just RIP to my fellow South Koreans.

South Koreans do not have military supremacy towards China but they have massive army so that they can prevent Chinese invasion towards Korean peninsula, and this will keep China as a inland superpower, preventing Chinese navy power projection reaches indian and pacific ocean.

This makes South Korean-Japanese-American and British forces deployed in East Asia more than enough to stop Chinese threats.

Russians.... they are lacking of money to arm nowadays. Their economy is just as big as South Korea, but they need to cover wide frontlines, which will limit the power projection of Russia in the future.
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 3
Original post by Skywalker7965
And, I am so sure that Europe will not be major frontline of WWIII if it happens. Just RIP to my fellow South Koreans.

It may have multiple theatres just like WW1 and WW2... things change quickly and unexpectedly. The point is, it would be less likely to happen if Britain, France and Germany spent more on defence.
Original post by Thomas2
It may have multiple theatres just like WW1 and WW2... things change quickly and unexpectedly. The point is, it would be less likely to happen if Britain, France and Germany spent more on defence.


Russian armed forces has shrunk over past decade, and to be fair, I think Russia won’t be able to advance till Central Europe due to their small and obsolete army/navy/airforce comparing to their massive frontlines.

I think NATO has military supremacy over Europe. I know it is not the most ideal state nowadays, (you know, if you are living in a country which has more than 1000 3rd generation tanks, 500000 military personnel, armed forces in Europe looks so pathetic) but it is far more than enough to surpress Russia when needed.
(edited 4 years ago)
Reply 5
Original post by Skywalker7965
Russian armed forces has shrunk over past decade, and to be fair, I think Russia won’t be able to advance till Central Europe due to their small and obsolete army/navy/airforce comparing to their massive frontlines.

I think NATO has military supremacy over Europe. I know it is not the most ideal state nowadays, (you know, if you are living in a country which has more than 1000 3rd generation tanks, 500000 military personnel, armed forces in Europe looks so pathetic) but it is far more than enough to surpress Russia when needed.

Britain only has around 100 tanks compared to Russia's several thousand.

Anyway, I'm not talking about right now, I'm talking about in 15-20 years' time.
BBC News - UK would be 'outgunned' in Russia conflict - think-tank
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50567271
There are so many ' What IF' in this modern world

Looking at the past history as a reference.

Britain had more wars with France. About more than 200 times actually. Since the time Britain and France have existed.

And how many times have Russia gone to war. Not many with its neighbours
And China,how many times have China gone to war (external and not within itself). About 3 times, not including the neighbours conflicts with Vietnam etc over the past 500 years time span

Russia and China have no interest to travel half way around the world picking a fight.

And now people uses the word...What IF

In this modern time, why people still like to use their muscles rather than their brain. It is now 2019, times have moved on. It is now all about trade .
Why not use the word - Lets make lots of money - together'

Why not make a win - win situation.
Rather than a war - war. Where lives are lost. Families get destroyed.

Is it really worth having more nuclear weapons such as the Tridents than a healthy economy ?
Defence, like all other government branches, must justify it's existence and budget.

We are two weeks away from a general election so it is little wonder that defence is a key voting decision for the 100's of thousands employed in the defence industry often in key constituencies.

That aside, the Army is no doubt feeling it's the poor sibling to the investments made in the navy and air force state-of-the-art equipment purchases and now feel the time is right to pitch for more resource.

All democratic countries do it: publicise a general threat and the risk to protecting sovereignty and economy in order to generate public and ministerial demand, then produce manifesto pledges to secure funds and votes.

Autocracies and dictatorships are no different - especially where large parts of their economy are dependent on defence equipment exports (Russia) and use propaganda to justify a false threat mantra and hence keep it's internal economic failure and population suppressed.
in the case of China, economic success (greatly helped by Western consumerism and Capitalist politics), has provided the financial resource to develop and consolidate global reach. That expansion can be viewed as a passively-aggressive neo-colonialism whilst deflecting not only internal critique (public control) and external pressure (historical reference and hypocrisy shaming) but also exerting economic leverage on all fronts.

In other words, all defence postures must be viewed in the context of political pursuasion, economic objectives and global influence. Defence strategic spending reflects and is aligned with those aims.
Reply 9
Original post by Thomas2
Why isn't more being made of the terrible state of our armed forces during this election? We're facing growing threats from Russia and China and yet Labour/SNP want to scrap trident and the Tories are talking of cutting the army to 65,000 and leasing a new flat-top to the USA!!! This is completely crazy! Sadly it seems as if the prospect of another major world conflict during the coming decades is growing, and the UK is not going to be prepared. I do not feel confident that the West would emerge as the victors next time...

Labour do not want to scrap Trident. They have pledged to renew the program and have also pledged to maintain a minimum 2% GDP defence funding.
Original post by Thomas2
Why isn't more being made of the terrible state of our armed forces during this election?

Because Defence isn't, and hasn't been, a vote winner since the '50s.

The public don't care, and the armed forces voting bloc is tiny and insignificant.
Reply 12
Original post by Drewski
Because Defence isn't, and hasn't been, a vote winner since the '50s.

The public don't care, and the armed forces voting bloc is tiny and insignificant.

They will only care when it's too late
Reply 13
Original post by Dez
Labour do not want to scrap Trident. They have pledged to renew the program and have also pledged to maintain a minimum 2% GDP defence funding.

I do not believe them.
Original post by Thomas2
They will only care when it's too late

And probably not even then.

When we were in Iraq and Afghanistan and were losing men due to poor equipment there was no real clamour for defence spending to rise.

People were dying because of a lack of budget (among other things) and nobody cared.

People will point to the fact we have the second highest defence budget in Europe and say there's no problem.
Original post by Drewski

When we were in Iraq and Afghanistan and were losing men due to poor equipment there was no real clamour for defence spending to rise.

People were dying because of a lack of budget (among other things) and nobody cared.

Yeah, pretty nasty when soldiers letters home all become "Afghanistan sucks, hope you're all well, PS pls pls pls send body armour, gonnie die"

See also : "That filthy foreign landmine is no match for a 40 year old BRITISH landrover right lads?"
(edited 4 years ago)
There is a lot more we could be doing, but unfortunately foreign affairs and defence don’t seem to be given as much attention as they should.
Reply 17
Original post by Thomas2
I do not believe them.

Ah I see, clearly you must have amazing psychic precognition in order to recognise that. Well done you.
Original post by Thomas2
Why isn't more being made of the terrible state of our armed forces during this election? We're facing growing threats from Russia and China and yet Labour/SNP want to scrap trident and the Tories are talking of cutting the army to 65,000 and leasing a new flat-top to the USA!!! This is completely crazy! Sadly it seems as if the prospect of another major world conflict during the coming decades is growing, and the UK is not going to be prepared. I do not feel confident that the West would emerge as the victors next time...

The simple answer to your question is that the people higher defense spending appeals to are already voting Tory and not having a PM who has been a committed foreign secretary in a few years (it was a job to Boris) means that it's considered something of a low priority.

The Tories are pledging an increase to 2.5% but it's not much and the trend has been to include things like military pensions and trident in that budget so less of it actually gets to the front line.

Personally I think it's sad and I myself would support a substantial increase in naval and air capacity in particular but then I'm already voting Tory so they are not really gaining my vote from pleasing it.
I think we should form an alliance with the Russians and invest in Russian defence spending.

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