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Staff forced to speak english by mcdonalds

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Reply 80

A quick, hypothetical, question for those people who are suggesting that English-speaking (even during breaks) should be compulsory. (I think that sometimes situations are better seen from a different perspective):

Imagine you and you best English-speaking buddy travel to China for an extended holiday. After a few months you can speak enough Chinese to get by. You are running slightly low on cash and decide to do a bit of temporary work. So you look for something which isn't going to test your limited Chinese too seriously. Let's say a fast-food joint. So you ask the customers if they'd like to go large (in your best Chinese). At 1pm it's time for you and your friend to enjoy a much-needed lunch break. (Remember here that you have never spoken to your friend in Chinese, you were at school together for 7 years and spoke nothing but English). Would you, or would you not feel affronted if you were told you were not allowed to speak English? And would you be offended if someone then turned around to you and said "If you don't like this rule then go back home?" I would imagine you may have some issue to take with this type of treatment.

But... crucially... the people we are expecting to drop all that comes naturally to them -their mother tongue- are not in England on holiday. They are here to earn a living. To get by the best they can (on abysmal McDonalds salaries). Please don't tell me that there is any reason why they should be forced to speak English whilst they are taking a break at work.

On a slightly different (yet relevant) note, when I travelled around Europe this summer, I can unequivocally say that the British are the worst tourists imaginable when it comes to the issue of language. When speaking to a French person, a German or an Italian I saw British people assume that they would be able to speak in English and be understood. In one month I saw this happen numerous times. In England I am yet to see a French person arrive with such a blasé attitude as to expect to be understood when he speaks French. It just doesn't happen. Europeans make much more effort when it comes to this question.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I hope it explains my disgust at people who say (nay grunt) things like "Speak English or piss off back home".

Reply 81

englishstudent
A quick, hypothetical, question for those people who are suggesting that English-speaking (even during breaks) should be compulsory. (I think that sometimes situations are better seen from a different perspective):

Imagine you and you best English-speaking buddy travel to China for an extended holiday. After a few months you can speak enough Chinese to get by. You are running slightly low on cash and decide to do a bit of temporary work. So you look for something which isn't going to test your limited Chinese too seriously. Let's say a fast-food joint. So you ask the customers if they'd like to go large (in your best Chinese). At 1pm it's time for you and your friend to enjoy a much-needed lunch break. (Remember here that you have never spoken to your friend in Chinese, you were at school together for 7 years and spoke nothing but English). Would you, or would you not feel affronted if you were told you were not allowed to speak English? And would you be offended if someone then turned around to you and said "If you don't like this rule then go back home?" I would imagine you may have some issue to take with this type of treatment.

But... crucially... the people we are expecting to drop all that comes naturally to them -their mother tongue- are not in England on holiday. They are here to earn a living. To get by the best they can (on abysmal McDonalds salaries). Please don't tell me that there is any reason why they should be forced to speak English whilst they are taking a break at work.



Who forced them to leave their little bourgeois life in England? Who forced them to work in a place where they could only speak Chinese? Who forced them to stay on in China?

The workers at McDonald's have decided to come to England. Why not France, Germany, Spain, America, Australia, Holland, Belguim, Ireland? If they don't like McDonald's rules, they should get a new job. If they don't like England, they should live in a different country.

Sorry you feel so offended but are you deliberately trying to miss the point?

Reply 82

englishstudent
But... crucially... the people we are expecting to drop all that comes naturally to them -their mother tongue- are not in England on holiday. They are here to earn a living. To get by the best they can (on abysmal McDonalds salaries). Please don't tell me that there is any reason why they should be forced to speak English whilst they are taking a break at work.


They are not expected to ''drop it'' completely. But while a company pays their wages, they must expect to abide by the rules. At home or outside of work there is no reason why they cannot speak their mother tongue.

As much as I hate McDonald's, they did give legitimate reasons for expecting their workers to speak only English at all times when working.

So I have to ignore your plea and tell you that there is a clear reason and logic for these immigrants to have to speak English while they take a break at work. However! They are not being ''forced''. They choose to work at McDonald's. If they do not abide by one rule, where will they draw the line?

Reply 83

Yes. It's a cliche because it saved you thinking about what you wrote. Precisely.

Obviously some thought was required to use it. This topic doesn't even require thinking about. This is just common sense.

I am not discussing your limited vocabulary, but your taste for cliches- the unthinking use of ready-made phrases.

'Cliches' is plural. I used one 'cliche'. Perhaps your own use of English isn't quite as perfect as what you may think. I find much of what you type to be superfluous waffle that has no purpose other than as a feeble way to impress weak minded people.

As one purpose of debate and discussion is to persuade other people that you are right you might find it useful to think before you type.

Yet more superfluous waffle. You might find it useful to take up your own advice.

People in call centres often use foreign accents: they're often Indians mimicking British- foreign to them- accents.

Would you find it offensive if laws were introduced to ensure people working in call centres could speak english fluently?

The amount of mutual understanding necessary in Macdonalds is not high.

Your politically correct elitist attitude becomes apparent here. You seem to look down on Macdonalds staff. You should realise that even here the company has to pick employees suitable for the job and encourage them to work in the optimal manner.

Beyond that, it doesn't matter which language people use to communicate with one another.

It does when you're working with customers. Any bad impression will lead to loss of profits.

Dangers never occur instantly. Accidents always do, when dangers have been disregarded. Equally, if someone doesn't know the english term for a dangerous situation, they may not mention it.

They should know the English term. Constantly speaking in the English language enables the staff to improve their english, so they will be able to communicate any dangers should they occur.

Reply 84

englishstudent
A quick, hypothetical, question for those people who are suggesting that English-speaking (even during breaks) should be compulsory. (I think that sometimes situations are better seen from a different perspective):

Just to reiterate that McDonalds policy asserts that employees speak English when 'on-duty', this does not include breaks or off-duty periods.


Imagine you and you best English-speaking buddy travel to China for an extended holiday. After a few months you can speak enough Chinese to get by. You are running slightly low on cash and decide to do a bit of temporary work. So you look for something which isn't going to test your limited Chinese too seriously. Let's say a fast-food joint. So you ask the customers if they'd like to go large (in your best Chinese).

McDonalds will not employ anyone that cannot sufficiently deal with customers or other staff in the English language.


At 1pm it's time for you and your friend to enjoy a much-needed lunch break. (Remember here that you have never spoken to your friend in Chinese, you were at school together for 7 years and spoke nothing but English). Would you, or would you not feel affronted if you were told you were not allowed to speak English? And would you be offended if someone then turned around to you and said "If you don't like this rule then go back home?" I would imagine you may have some issue to take with this type of treatment.

I would indeed be irritated by the lack of sympathy to my position, but I dont expect my employee to allow me to speak any language other than Chinese when on duty.


But... crucially... the people we are expecting to drop all that comes naturally to them -their mother tongue- are not in England on holiday. They are here to earn a living. To get by the best they can (on abysmal McDonalds salaries).

If you enter Britain to work and live, you commit to adapting to and equipping yourself with basic skills to improve your employability, this includes speaking the native language. McDonalds happens to be an admired employer.


Please don't tell me that there is any reason why they should be forced to speak English whilst they are taking a break at work.


I sincerely doubt there is any reason to discipline an employee in this circumstance. There are reasons to promote speaking English when off-duty.


On a slightly different (yet relevant) note, when I travelled around Europe this summer, I can unequivocally say that the British are the worst tourists imaginable when it comes to the issue of language. When speaking to a French person, a German or an Italian I saw British people assume that they would be able to speak in English and be understood. In one month I saw this happen numerous times. In England I am yet to see a French person arrive with such a blasé attitude as to expect to be understood when he speaks French.

I partly agree. I find it is more embarrassment than arrogance.


It just doesn't happen. Europeans make much more effort when it comes to this question.

Britons are European.


Sorry for the length of this post, but I hope it explains my disgust at people who say (nay grunt) things like "Speak English or piss off back home".

That is a legitimate demand from any employee to his/her staff.
That is a logical basis on which work permits or immigration should be assessed.

I dont find it a disgusting request.

Reply 85

padraic
As much as I hate McDonald's, they did give legitimate reasons for expecting their workers to speak only English at all times when working.


I think that the issue is whether people who share a common language should be able to use it when on their break. This should be clarified to avoid arguing at cross-purposes, which seems to be what's happening.

padraic
Who forced them to leave their little bourgeois life in England? Who forced them to work in a place where they could only speak Chinese? Who forced them to stay on in China?
...
Sorry you feel so offended but are you deliberately trying to miss the point?


You have ignored my post further back in the thread asking you to consider the practicality of what you demand.

Reply 86

Werther
I think that the issue is whether people who share a common language should be able to use it when on their break. This should be clarified to avoid arguing at cross-purposes, which seems to be what's happening.


Yes, quite. I think Vienna perhaps missed the point, he didn't seem to realise that I was talking about break-times.

Reply 87

Gaz031

The amount of mutual understanding necessary in Macdonalds is not high.


Your politically correct elitist attitude becomes apparent here. You seem to look down on Macdonalds staff.


I think it could be proven that the degree of competency in English required to work in MacDonalds is not high. To state this as a fact, especially in a discussion about language, does not reveal any elitist attitude.

Gaz031
You should realise that even here the company has to pick employees suitable for the job and encourage them to work in the optimal manner.


The company pick people who DO possess adequate English skills "for the job". That some of these people prefer to speak foreign languages to each other indicates that the standard of English required on duty is lower than that of a normal conversation.

Reply 88

englishstudent
Yes, quite. I think Vienna perhaps missed the point, he didn't seem to realise that I was talking about break-times.


I replied to precisely those points that you made in your post. None were missed or misinterpreted, as you seem to believe is the case.

Reply 89

In the Burger King in Oxford, a friend and I heard the manager behind the counter tell off a girl for talking to her colleague in chinese - :frown:

Reply 90

OK, I actually work in a fast-food - restaurant? is that the right word? probably not - so I have a better idea on what that notice would mean.

Where I work, there's one person on till, two people cooking burgers, one doing pizza, and maybe someone in the eating area cleaning and someone washing up. Suppose the girl on the till is Chinese, and also one of the burger-cookers. What would happen if the girl on till would give specific cooking instructions to the Chinese girl on burgers, in Chinese? No-one else in the kitchen would understand the instruction, and if anyone else did that particular order, then they would do it wrong and annoy the customer.

Chinese staff talking Chinese to the Chinese customers does make sense though. I have trouble - "Would you like ketchup, mayonaisse, or barbeque sauce?" " :confused: Yes! :smile: "

So in a busy kitchen, all communications should be in the same language. It is common sense really. The same way that French aircraft talk in English to German air traffic controllers. And French aircraft at international airports talk English to the French controllers there, you can't have multilingual instructions in a busy, conflicting workspace.

Reply 91

Werther
I think it could be proven that the degree of competency in English required to work in MacDonalds is not high. To state this as a fact, especially in a discussion about language, does not reveal any elitist attitude.

Aren't you actually using more English than someone like an office worker or a handyman? The company should be able to pick the best employees for the job and enplace rules which ensure they work in the best possible manner.

The company pick people who DO possess adequate English skills "for the job". That some of these people prefer to speak foreign languages to each other indicates that the standard of English required on duty is lower than that of a normal conversation.

Or alternatively, perhaps it's more demanding. As you said, they don't know all the English words so they have to resort to their own language in an attempt to make people understand.

Reply 92

padraic
They are not expected to ''drop it'' completely. But while a company pays their wages, they must expect to abide by the rules. At home or outside of work there is no reason why they cannot speak their mother tongue. ~The rules a company applies should be sane and reasonable. To To insist that people speak only English at all times whilr on their premises is neither.

As much as I hate McDonald's, they did give legitimate reasons for expecting their workers to speak only English at all times when working.
They did not. A junior manager, for unknown reasons, tried to impose absurd and ridiculous rules.
Macdonalds themselves, being governed by avarice and profit-hunting, recognised that these rules might interfere with their purpose and rescinded them.

Reply 93

Gaz031
Obviously some thought was required to use it. This topic doesn't even require thinking about.
Make up your mind.

'Cliches' is plural. I used one 'cliche'. Perhaps your own use of English isn't quite as perfect as what you may think. I find much of what you type to be superfluous waffle that has no purpose other than as a feeble way to impress weak minded people.
Cliches is, indeed, plural. However, the singular noun-phrase "taste for cliches", governs the following phrase.
What is superfluous waffle in what I said? After all, if it were, you would see no need to reply to it. My intention is to persuade other people that the view I put forward is the most reasonable one. What do you debate and discuss for then, if not to persuade other people of your opinions?


Would you find it offensive if laws were introduced to ensure people working in call centres could speak english fluently?
It wouldn't be necessary. After all, if the call-centre deals with an English-speaking country only people who spoke English would get jobs. If it deals with a country that doesn't speak English there'd be no point.


Your politically correct elitist attitude becomes apparent here. You seem to look down on Macdonalds staff. You should realise that even here the company has to pick employees suitable for the job and encourage them to work in the optimal manner.
What is "politically correct" or "elitist" about what I said? Precisely what do you mean by "politically correct"? It seems to be a term you use when you can't think of any actual reason for your disagreement.
The only qualifications required to work for Macdonalds are an English vocabulary that covers the very limited requirements and a willingness to accept the pay and attitudes of Macdonalds. Macdonalds themselves deliberately "deskilled" jobs as much as possible so that they didn't need to pay the wages skilled workers might demand. It isn't "politically correct" to point this out- it's avowed company policy.


It does when you're working with customers. Any bad impression will lead to loss of profits.
Where did I say otherwise? Equally, if a customer doesn't speak English well they may come back because they can say what they want more easily to someone that speaks their own language.


They should know the English term.
An interesting linguistic point: can one know the term for something which has never happened before it happens? In fact, many native-English speakers don't know the terms for many things because they have never come across them before.
Constantly speaking in the English language enables the staff to improve their english, so they will be able to communicate any dangers should they occur.
If they only know the english for what Macdonalds sell, they won't. Once they have learned more Engish that Macdonalds needs they will probably go somewhere else anyway. People who work for Macdonalds would speak English most of the time anyway for practical reasons. It is ridiculous and narrow-minded and- worse still from Macdonalds' view- unprofitable to insist that they never speak any other language.

Reply 94

Gaz031
Aren't you actually using more English than someone like an office worker or a handyman? The company should be able to pick the best employees for the job and enplace rules which ensure they work in the best possible manner.


You missed my point entirely. I said that the degree of competency in English required to work in MacDonalds is not high. This does not mean that there are no jobs that require a lower standard (and I doubt that officer workers fall into this category!). I wanted to make clear to you that comparing the skills needed for jobs in an objective manner does not involve social prejudice. In fact, given your post, I could accuse you of looking down upon office workers and handymen, labelling you as "elitist" in the same way that you did Weejimmie.

Gaz031
Or alternatively, perhaps it's more demanding. As you said, they don't know all the English words so they have to resort to their own language in an attempt to make people understand.


You seem to like the idea that "the company has to pick employees suitable for the job". In this case why would they choose people who find English too demanding? You contradict yourself, unless you'd have us believe that the company choose people who are not competent enough in the first place, THEN force English upon them. I suppose this is a benevolent gesture to help integrate them into our society...

Reply 95

You should speak English for any job in this country.

Reply 96

Amb1
You should speak English for any job in this country.

Including teaching Welsh or Gaelic?
By "should" do you mean "must" or "ought to"? Certainly, it is better to speak English for entirely practical reasons. Someone who knows no English at all will find the range of jobs they can do very restricted and will very probably be exploited. However, to say that people must speak nothing but English is an absurd imposition. If people can't speak enouigh English to do a job they won't get the job. If they sometimes use other languages at work it doesn't do any harm and may be helpful.

Reply 97

Weejimmie
Including teaching Welsh or Gaelic?
By "should" do you mean "must" or "ought to"? Certainly, it is better to speak English for entirely practical reasons. Someone who knows no English at all will find the range of jobs they can do very restricted and will very probably be exploited. However, to say that people must speak nothing but English is an absurd imposition. If people can't speak enouigh English to do a job they won't get the job. If they sometimes use other languages at work it doesn't do any harm and may be helpful.

I don't mean 'you must speak English and only English at all times'. But even if you are teaching other languages you need to be able to speak English in order to communicate with colleagues and other parties. If you are unable to communicate in English you will be at a disadvantage at some point in your career and/or will struggle to provide the full service to your clients/students/customers...

Reply 98

Amb1
I don't mean 'you must speak English and only English at all times'. But even if you are teaching other languages you need to be able to speak English in order to communicate with colleagues and other parties. If you are unable to communicate in English you will be at a disadvantage at some point in your career and/or will struggle to provide the full service to your clients/students/customers...


Of course. The contention is over whether other languages are permissable as well.

Reply 99

Werther
Of course. The contention is over whether other languages are permissable as well.

I think it's rude to speak in another language when you are perfectly able to speak in English. When I am in a foreign country I do my best to speak the native language. And that's only when I'm on holiday. If I were living and working in another country and benefitting from it's systems...etc. then I would endeavour to speak the native language at all times. You can't expect to be fully accepted as a citizen if you don't.

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