London Bridge Cordoned After Reports of Gunfire
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Absolutely but many leftists would disagree. My heart breaks for the people that died and it seems so pointless. These people died because of Islamic scripture? How pathetic. I can't believe Usman Khan was plotting to kill rabbis similar to the Mumbai style attacks. So much hate in their hearts.
Original post by indigo567
Absolutely but many leftists would disagree. My heart breaks for the people that died and it seems so pointless. These people died because of Islamic scripture? How pathetic. I can't believe Usman Khan was plotting to kill rabbis similar to the Mumbai style attacks. So much hate in their hearts.
I am mostly liberal myself but I do agree that some people are just too dangerous to ordinary people to be rehabilitated. We put down dangerous dogs for far less so why not dangerous people?
How many more terrorists do you want walking the streets?
Usman pleaded guilty and was gaoled for (in reality) 8 years.
Would he have pleaded guilty if he was facing a death sentence?
You need 10 or of 12 jurors to convict (83%) if someone pleads Not Guilty.
The last survey showed 48% support for the death penalty.
How confident are you that the 35% of people who do not support the death penalty would agree to send Usman to the gallows? That is without thinking about the people who support the death penalty until they are the ones in the jury room making the decision.
I'm not confident at all and if I am right Usman would have been walking the streets in 2012 not 2018. That is why the death penalty was abolished for most offences in the 1830s. Juries wouldn't convict.
Usman pleaded guilty and was gaoled for (in reality) 8 years.
Would he have pleaded guilty if he was facing a death sentence?
You need 10 or of 12 jurors to convict (83%) if someone pleads Not Guilty.
The last survey showed 48% support for the death penalty.
How confident are you that the 35% of people who do not support the death penalty would agree to send Usman to the gallows? That is without thinking about the people who support the death penalty until they are the ones in the jury room making the decision.
I'm not confident at all and if I am right Usman would have been walking the streets in 2012 not 2018. That is why the death penalty was abolished for most offences in the 1830s. Juries wouldn't convict.
Original post by nulli tertius
How many more terrorists do you want walking the streets?
Usman pleaded guilty and was gaoled for (in reality) 8 years.
Would he have pleaded guilty if he was facing a death sentence?
You need 10 or of 12 jurors to convict (83%) if someone pleads Not Guilty.
The last survey showed 48% support for the death penalty.
How confident are you that the 35% of people who do not support the death penalty would agree to send Usman to the gallows? That is without thinking about the people who support the death penalty until they are the ones in the jury room making the decision.
I'm not confident at all and if I am right Usman would have been walking the streets in 2012 not 2018. That is why the death penalty was abolished for most offences in the 1830s. Juries wouldn't convict.
Usman pleaded guilty and was gaoled for (in reality) 8 years.
Would he have pleaded guilty if he was facing a death sentence?
You need 10 or of 12 jurors to convict (83%) if someone pleads Not Guilty.
The last survey showed 48% support for the death penalty.
How confident are you that the 35% of people who do not support the death penalty would agree to send Usman to the gallows? That is without thinking about the people who support the death penalty until they are the ones in the jury room making the decision.
I'm not confident at all and if I am right Usman would have been walking the streets in 2012 not 2018. That is why the death penalty was abolished for most offences in the 1830s. Juries wouldn't convict.
Well he was walking around here freely wasn’t he? That’s why he was able to commit his attack. So there is no difference really. 48% is almost half the population so it’s not exactly a minority view
I will try and avoid the Brexit point about 48%.
However, a bare majority view isn't enough if you are trying to run a system that requires active participation (not merely passive support) in the process from 83%.
You cannot seriously suggest that because someone might offend again 8 years down the line when released, one should not gaol them in the meantime.
The key issue that supporters of capital punishment never wish to face is the unwillingness of jurors to convict the guilty. The conviction rate will fall off the side of a cliff.
However, a bare majority view isn't enough if you are trying to run a system that requires active participation (not merely passive support) in the process from 83%.
You cannot seriously suggest that because someone might offend again 8 years down the line when released, one should not gaol them in the meantime.
The key issue that supporters of capital punishment never wish to face is the unwillingness of jurors to convict the guilty. The conviction rate will fall off the side of a cliff.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The system of reviewing such incidents badly needs an overhaul, there needs to be an ability for a quick decision to be taken by someone like the Home Secretary that this is not a case suitable for endless dragged out investigations. I don't know how we can expect the police to protect us from these kinds of terror attacks otherwise.
I wouldn't trust any decision made by the Home Secretary, they are not independent.
Original post by nulli tertius
I will try and avoid the Brexit point about 48%.
However, a bare majority view isn't enough if you are trying to run a system that requires active participation (not merely passive support) in the process from 83%.
You cannot seriously suggest that because someone might offend again 8 years down the line when released, one should not gaol them in the meantime.
The key issue that supporters of capital punishment never wish to face is the unwillingness of jurors to convict the guilty. The conviction rate will fall off the side of a cliff.
However, a bare majority view isn't enough if you are trying to run a system that requires active participation (not merely passive support) in the process from 83%.
You cannot seriously suggest that because someone might offend again 8 years down the line when released, one should not gaol them in the meantime.
The key issue that supporters of capital punishment never wish to face is the unwillingness of jurors to convict the guilty. The conviction rate will fall off the side of a cliff.
That is what you seem to be suggesting, not me; I’m only commenting on the fact that as he was walking around the street despite being a convicted terrorist there might as well have been no difference, at least from the perspective of the victims who lost their lives to this dangerous individual. This outcome could have been avoided if he had been given the death penalty as he justly deserved when he was convicted of his original offence. Happily, here was defacto given the death penalty by being shot, which is the only right and proper outcome.
I suppose unless you solely choose jury members that are pro-death penalty you will have no way to circumvent the issue of jury’s not convicting. You could argue they are obstructing justice by not convicting out of political opposition.
Original post by nulli tertius
No.
An 8 year IPP and a 16 year determinate sentence have the same custody period; 8 years. He was arrested on 20 December 2010 and released in December 2018.
An 8 year IPP and a 16 year determinate sentence have the same custody period; 8 years. He was arrested on 20 December 2010 and released in December 2018.
There is a fundamental difference between ipp/ life sentences compared to determinate sentences though, if his sentence wasn't changed to determinate he would probably still be in prison as there is no automatic right to release after the custodial point passes (unless he hypnotised the parole board to believe he was rehabilitated)
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by chosenone93
There is a fundamental difference between ipp/ life sentences compared to determinate sentences though, if his sentence wasn't changed to determinate he would probably still be in prison as there is no automatic right to release at the half way point (unless he hypnotised the parole board to believe he was rehabilitated)
You haven't understood my post:
1 The existence of IPPs created the Worboys problem. If the Defendant will plead guilty to a lesser offence that will attract an IPP, why have a trial on a more serious offence? The problem is that when the Parole Board looks at his offending they can only take into account risk relating to the offence for which he was convicted. The temptation to a prosecutor from an IPP to take the easy win is too great. That happened with Worboys and almost certainly happened here. IPPs corrupt prosecutors' decision making.
2 We have concrete evidence that he would, as you put it, hypnotise the Parole Board. He was invited to an event for rehabilitated offenders. This was an event to show off the successes of rehabilitation.
Are you seriously suggesting jury packing based on political belief?
I am saying he wouldn't have been hanged in 2012. As likely as not he would have been acquitted. We can't know whether he would have killed more or fewer if he had been walking the streets since 2012 (he might have learned how to fly a passenger jet into the Shard) but to suggest that the 8 years of respite from anything he might have done was of no value, is a nonsense and a recipe for saying that no-one who might reoffend should be punished unless we can be sure by either execution or rehabilitation that they would never offend again.
I am saying he wouldn't have been hanged in 2012. As likely as not he would have been acquitted. We can't know whether he would have killed more or fewer if he had been walking the streets since 2012 (he might have learned how to fly a passenger jet into the Shard) but to suggest that the 8 years of respite from anything he might have done was of no value, is a nonsense and a recipe for saying that no-one who might reoffend should be punished unless we can be sure by either execution or rehabilitation that they would never offend again.
Original post by DiddyDecAlt
I wouldn't trust any decision made by the Home Secretary, they are not independent.
Some sort of panel? Something capable of deciding in less than the current multi-year programme of professional buck passing and indifference to the public good.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Some sort of panel? Something capable of deciding in less than the current multi-year programme of professional buck passing and indifference to the public good.
That would take investment into the CJS, we don't currently have a government that believes in that.
I don't favour the death penalty, apart from anything else, it corrupts and dehumanises the people involved in putting it through. It also would further serve Jihadi propaganda, although they don't seem to have to be all that effective to bring some of the nuttier cases like this one to action. In reality we probably do need some kind of internment, that didn't have a great reputation in Northern Ireland, but we simply cannot have a situation like this where they are left to rum amok in our cities, murdering innocent people at random, because some deranged mullah on youtube tells them to.
@indigo567 Whilst I don't agree with or support religion, those civilians believe in a God and they don't agree with the actions that have taken place. They are praying to something they believe in, to bring themselves some comfort and a sense of control. They're likely asking for this behaviour to stop and/or praying for those who have lost their lives and the ones still fighting for theirs in hospital. There's no harm in doing that. The last attack was two and a half years ago, if every Muslim in the country supported those depraved individuals, we'd be in the midst of a terrible war.
My concern is that our soft country will let the others he's affiliated with, out on a tag, to risk the same thing happening again. If they believe in third world ideologies and they're not British born, they should be sent away from this country. They shouldn't be allowed to walk our streets.
Original post by -Eirlys-
@indigo567 Whilst I don't agree with or support religion, those civilians believe in a God and they don't agree with the actions that have taken place. They are praying to something they believe in, to bring themselves some comfort and a sense of control. They're likely asking for this behaviour to stop and/or praying for those who have lost their lives and the ones still fighting for theirs in hospital. There's no harm in doing that. The last attack was two and a half years ago, if every Muslim in the country supported those depraved individuals, we'd be in the midst of a terrible war.
I have no issue with religion but I find it disrespectful and people honestly don't want to see people using the same ideology and religion that killed these 2 people and many others injured as a way to honour the dead. Its vile.
Original post by -Eirlys-
My concern is that our soft country will let the others he's affiliated with, out on a tag, to risk the same thing happening again. If they believe in third world ideologies and they're not British born, they should be sent away from this country. They shouldn't be allowed to walk our streets.
Who are "they"?
Usman was born in Stoke
Original post by -Eirlys-
My concern is that our soft country will let the others he's affiliated with, out on a tag, to risk the same thing happening again. If they believe in third world ideologies and they're not British born, they should be sent away from this country. They shouldn't be allowed to walk our streets.
He was UK-born.
It's going to need some sort of internment. There are thousands under surveillance, although many (like this one) apparently only very weak surveillance.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
He was UK-born.
It's going to need some sort of internment. There are thousands under surveillance, although many (like this one) apparently only very weak surveillance.
It's going to need some sort of internment. There are thousands under surveillance, although many (like this one) apparently only very weak surveillance.
Why didn't you reply to my post? No answer?
Sounds like the Probation Service still lack any sort of deradicalisation resource.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2019/nov/30/london-bridge-attack-police-search-property-in-stafford-latest-updates
That's been talked about for many years, I remember hearing a discussion about it with a Lab minister under Blair.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2019/nov/30/london-bridge-attack-police-search-property-in-stafford-latest-updates
That's been talked about for many years, I remember hearing a discussion about it with a Lab minister under Blair.
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