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pickup
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#41
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#41
(Original post by acelenny)
I do not deny that for a moment, However, the key is what I said about a variety of factors.

If you want to talk about knock on effects you can also look at the continuing effects of the financial crisis and Bordon Brown's policies, the debt built up under labour, the introduction of university fees, by labour, etc, etc.

It is useless playing the blame game for many (though by no means all) things because each party has done good things and bad things at various points in time.
The cause of the Debt was an International Financial Crisis started by Bankers in America trading in packaged investments with v. high risk. ( Loans/ mortgages to people who couldn't pay them off - see Fanny Mae ) our banks buying them without doing due diligence to discover what was hidden within them.

Gordon Brown decided if ordinary people in this country were not to lose their lifetime savings as our Banks went bankrupt the Government would have to provide the money to the banks to protect their customers.

Far from Labour being irresponsible, they were protecting us all.
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acelenny
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#42
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#42
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
Our national debt is still massive at the cost of everything I listed above and we have no way of comparing the rate of spending so that’s a moot point
So we should have let it be tripple what it is just so no cuts would be necesary? How silly.

As for comparing rates of spending, we know that the conservatives have always panned to spend less than labour and still plan to do so. It is hardly a moot point. Especially with regards to the next parliament.
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AdamCor
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#43
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#43
(Original post by acelenny)
Yeah, but let's just spend as much as we like on the NHS and run the economy into the ground. Even if the top 10% of the country paid 90% tax and the major businesses paid say, 60% with no loopholes, it would still not be enough. The NHS cannot survive and it must change to a more affordable system. It is a great idea but there is a reason no on else has coppied it exactly.

A German, French, Australian, or Japanese system would be better overall I think.
Having a public health service and not running the economy into the ground are not mutually exclusive.

Yes the NHS has problems and desperately needs funding. However I am very very skeptical of your tax statement, since huge multinational companies such as Apple and Amazon technically pay all their tax, but effectively they do not pay the required corporation tax, since there are loopholes.
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acelenny
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#44
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#44
(Original post by pickup)
The cause of the Debt was an International Financial Crisis started by Bankers in America trading in packaged investments with v. high risk. ( Loans/ mortgages to people who couldn't pay them off - see Fanny Mae ) our banks buying them without doing due diligence to discover what was hidden within them.

Gordon Brown decided if ordinary people in this country were not to lose their lifetime savings as our Banks went bankrupt the Government would have to provide the money to the banks to protect their customers.

Far from Labour being irresponsible, they were protecting us all.
The cause of the financial crisis was exacerbated by labour policies.

Also, most of the decision making regarding the bailout was made within the treasury, not by Gordon Brown himself. I agree that it was absolutely necessary. That was not what I was thinking of precisely.
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acelenny
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#45
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#45
(Original post by AdamCor)
Having a public health service and not running the economy into the ground are not mutually exclusive.

Yes the NHS has problems and desperately needs funding. However I am very very skeptical of your tax statement, since huge multinational companies such as Apple and Amazon technically pay all their tax, but effectively they do not pay the required corporation tax, since there are loopholes.
I never said they were mutually exclusive. Hence my reference to other, more cost efficient systems.

If we forced Apple and Google, and Amazon to pay huge amounts of tax on their earnings here, and they actually paid it, it would still not be enough for the NHS. Why? Because there is inifinite demand fo NHS and always will be. We could spend the entirety of the budget of the USA on the NHS and it would still want more.
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AngryRedhead
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#46
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#46
(Original post by acelenny)
So we should have let it be tripple what it is just so no cuts would be necesary? How silly.

As for comparing rates of spending, we know that the conservatives have always panned to spend less than labour and still plan to do so. It is hardly a moot point. Especially with regards to the next parliament.
We have a huge problem with tax dodging and tax breaks for corporations in this country; no doubt encouraged by the Tories to keep all their rich cronies happy at the expense of the ordinary person. If we collected all the tax that should rightfully be ours we wouldn’t have as much as an issue
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AdamCor
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#47
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#47
(Original post by acelenny)
The cause of the financial crisis was exacerbated by labour policies.

Also, most of the decision making regarding the bailout was made within the treasury, not by Gordon Brown himself. I agree that it was absolutely necessary. That was not what I was thinking of precisely.
Which labour policies?
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pickup
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#48
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#48
(Original post by the bear)
hmmmm the Chief Rabbi is not convinced.
But many in the Jewish community are. Evidenced by the collapse of the circulation of the right wing Jewish Chronicle ( off shoot of the US owned Kessler Foundation ) and it's impending bankruptcy since it decided to attack him. Experience has taught them that Jeremy Corbyn is on their side.
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acelenny
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#49
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#49
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
We have a huge problem with tax dodging and tax breaks for corporations in this country; no doubt encouraged by the Tories to keep all their rich cronies happy at the expense of the ordinary person. If we collected all the tax that should rightfully be ours we wouldn’t have as much as an issue
You are seeing a conspiracy where there is none.

Also, yes we should close some loopholes to extract more tax but not too much.
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acelenny
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#50
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#50
(Original post by acelenny)
You are seeing a conspiracy where there is none.

Also, yes we should close some loopholes to extract more tax but not too much.
(Original post by AdamCor)
Which labour policies?
It is a bit late to look them up now. If I remember tomorrow I will reply with the relevant details.
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acelenny
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#51
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#51
(Original post by pickup)
But many in the Jewish community are. Evidenced by the collapse of the circulation of the right wing Jewish Chronicle ( off shoot of the US owned Kessler Foundation ) and it's impending bankruptcy since it decided to attack him. Experience has taught them that Jeremy Corbyn is on their side.
I think one issue is that although Corbyn may be, and indeed the party as a whole is, there have been prominent examples of individuals who are not. They have stained the party's image and people feel that this has not been suitably addressed.

Personally, I don't think that Corbyn is necessarily an anti-semite. Disliking Israel and thinking that it should not exist is not anti-semitism.
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Vinny C
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#52
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#52
Simply.. Labour are crap with money. They blow it all on nationalisation or pointless wars, always have! Tories are good with money but I cannot bring myself to vote for the **** who caused this tanker crash in the first place. Next question?
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the bear
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#53
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#53
(Original post by pickup)
But many in the Jewish community are. Evidenced by the collapse of the circulation of the right wing Jewish Chronicle ( off shoot of the US owned Kessler Foundation ) and it's impending bankruptcy since it decided to attack him. Experience has taught them that Jeremy Corbyn is on their side.
i'm with the Chief Rabbi on this one

Mazel Tov

:israel:
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AngryRedhead
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#54
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#54
(Original post by acelenny)
You are seeing a conspiracy where there is none.

Also, yes we should close some loopholes to extract more tax but not too much.
Cronyism is no conspiracy; big business loves the Tories because they don’t have to pay any taxes, why do you think they fund them?

As for fiscal responsibility; the Tories tossed that away the minute they started working torwards Brexit, which undeniably tank our economy more than any Labour government could, so there’s that
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mnot
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#55
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#55
(Original post by ByEeek)
Agreed. And therein lies the million dollar question. Why do people vote as they do? I rather imagine it boils down to brand and a perception that the other lot will make a mess of things. I am dreading the next Tory government. Leaving the EU is just the start of Brexit, not the end and it is clear the US are kicking their lips in anticipation of raping us for our highly prized NHS contracts. Dark days are ahead.
So im a 18-24 yo, making minimum wage (as a PhD student), went to an (average at best) state school. So I dont think I fit the traditional tory stereotype.

Why will I vote tory this election?
I personally believe we should have as much freedom as possible and the government should run the essentials and allow people to do what they want, Im also a big believer in the free market.

Labour has a track record of blowing through cash and creating a hole which then causes a need for austerity, Corbyns plan to borrow £250-400Bn over 10 years does just that creates a huge hole which will (when the bonds become due) be a nightmare (I also believe Labour will just keep re-issueing bonds to plaster over the problem until a breaking point which inevitably is just more austerity a decade or 2 from now).

Additionally I find Corbyn even more unelectable:
He can go out and have meals with the UAE, attend a memorial service and lay a wreath with Hamas, but alienates and protests against Trump coming for a state visit.
The whole Labour front bench is completely incompetent, and I think its reckless to allow Dianne Abbott anywhere near a ministerial position.

I also cant get over the hypocrisy, im not even against private schools or friends helping friends but Corbyn went to a school which cost £36K a year to attend, is a millionaire (who isnt taxing hoarded wealth, but attacking people whos assets are in the stock market and taxing people 45 & 50% rates who are far far less wealthy than himself and makes out their the problem...). Additionally his son is chief of staff to McDonnell (hes 27, how did he climb the ladder so fast?), he preaches equality of opportunity but his actions are very different.

Additionally, I heard he got 2 Es at A-level & he failed to complete his degree at West London uni (West London!!!) i dont think this in itself is that bad (and dont want to bash the uni) but I do wonder how bright he is, and if hes actually smart enough to manage a position of such importance.
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ColinDent
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#56
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#56
If I'm being honest then I'm going to vote for them because of brexit, but I will call myself a **** and bash my own head on the wall on a daily basis for doing so, even though it's the fault of each and every MP that stood on a manifesto to leave then blatantly went back on that promise whether they be remainers or leavers.
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pickup
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#57
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#57
(Original post by Vinny C)
Simply.. Labour are crap with money. They blow it all on nationalisation or pointless wars, always have! Tories are good with money but I cannot bring myself to vote for the **** who caused this tanker crash in the first place. Next question?
'Labour .. crap with money' The evidence points to the opposite.

Nationalisation btw of eg the railways cost nothing. You just wait for the licences to runout. Then the profits come into Government coffers instead of into private hands. (With privatisation we have one of the most expensive rail systems in Europe.) Win win.

it is never a good idea for monopolies like Water/ Royal Mail ( Mrs Thatcher was against it) to be in private hands and run for private profit. The companies involved are always going to make the biggest profits they can, ripping off their customers, paying their share holders with it instead of investing hence the dire situation we have now. Again nationalisation = the country's gain.
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Vinny C
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#58
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#58
(Original post by pickup)
'Labour .. crap with money' The evidence points to the opposite.

Nationalisation btw of eg the railways cost nothing. You just wait for the licences to runout. Then the profits come into Government coffers instead of into private hands. (With privatisation we have one of the most expensive rail systems in Europe.) Win win.

it is never a good idea for monopolies like Water/ Royal Mail ( Mrs Thatcher was against it) to be in private hands and run for private profit. The companies involved are always going to make the biggest profits they can, ripping off their customers, paying their share holders with it instead of investing hence the dire situation we have now. Again nationalisation = the country's gain.
How naïve you are... Nationalisation provides an attitude keep your head down and job for life. No incentive to improve. The NCB... the CEGB... British Rail... all went tits up because of this stupid attitude. Job for life and the govt will pay... as the miners discovered to their peril. No nationalised industry has ever been profitable... as the Russians discovered to their peril.
Last edited by Vinny C; 1 week ago
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ColinDent
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#59
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#59
(Original post by pickup)
'Labour .. crap with money' The evidence points to the opposite.

Nationalisation btw of eg the railways cost nothing. You just wait for the licences to runout. Then the profits come into Government coffers instead of into private hands. (With privatisation we have one of the most expensive rail systems in Europe.) Win win.

it is never a good idea for monopolies like Water/ Royal Mail ( Mrs Thatcher was against it) to be in private hands and run for private profit. The companies involved are always going to make the biggest profits they can, ripping off their customers, paying their share holders with it instead of investing hence the dire situation we have now. Again nationalisation = the country's gain.
I have to agree with Vinny on this matter, nationalisation+union ( as it would inevitably be under a Corbyn led government) = disaster and misery for each and every one of us.
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bumpytrumpy
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#60
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#60
Yes - simply because Labour has a leader who is pro-terrorist and anti-semitic he wont deal with the the threat Islamic extremism poses and is simply complicit with it.

He said on camera just weeks ago I dont agree with the shoot to kill policy to deal with terrorists wtf!
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