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Law at Cambridge-reality check

Hello,
My daughter is currently in Y12 studying A Levels and is considering applying to Law at Cambridge in 2021. Her target grades (not predicted yet) are A*AA in Sociology, English Literature, Government and Politics, respectively.
GCSE grades- 9999888875 (9s were in EngLang/Lit,Spanish and RS, 8s in Maths, Sciences and Geography).
She received 25% extra time (and permission to wear ear plugs) in the exams and will continue to do so during A-Levels.
From the Cambridge University website I understand that she will have the opportunity to disclose her difficulties and request extra time for the CLT.

Assuming that she achieves the typical offer and has a PS of required level, would the need for extra time decrease her chances of receiving an invitation for interview, or indeed an offer?

How do top Law Faculties in general view students who achieve their good grades with extra time?

I don't want to see her wasting time, so I'd appreciate some realistic advice. Thank you.
Original post by soeusei
Hello,
My daughter is currently in Y12 studying A Levels and is considering applying to Law at Cambridge in 2021. Her target grades (not predicted yet) are A*AA in Sociology, English Literature, Government and Politics, respectively.
GCSE grades- 9999888875 (9s were in EngLang/Lit,Spanish and RS, 8s in Maths, Sciences and Geography).
She received 25% extra time (and permission to wear ear plugs) in the exams and will continue to do so during A-Levels.
From the Cambridge University website I understand that she will have the opportunity to disclose her difficulties and request extra time for the CLT.

Assuming that she achieves the typical offer and has a PS of required level, would the need for extra time decrease her chances of receiving an invitation for interview, or indeed an offer?

How do top Law Faculties in general view students who achieve their good grades with extra time?

I don't want to see her wasting time, so I'd appreciate some realistic advice. Thank you.


This is the kind of question that should ONLY be answered by the Cambridge Law admissions team of her prospective college of application. If she’s not sure of a college I’m sure she can find one who can give a proper answer to this question,
Just my personal opinion but i dont think it’d matter because obviously extra time is given to people for a reason, would be rude to penalise your daughter for whatever reason hers is, probably discriminatory aswell. I’m attaching a picture with the email and number for the law school for quicker reference and will post a link to the course if you want


https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/law
Attachment not found
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by soeusei
Hello,
My daughter is currently in Y12 studying A Levels and is considering applying to Law at Cambridge in 2021. Her target grades (not predicted yet) are A*AA in Sociology, English Literature, Government and Politics, respectively.
GCSE grades- 9999888875 (9s were in EngLang/Lit,Spanish and RS, 8s in Maths, Sciences and Geography).
She received 25% extra time (and permission to wear ear plugs) in the exams and will continue to do so during A-Levels.
From the Cambridge University website I understand that she will have the opportunity to disclose her difficulties and request extra time for the CLT.

Assuming that she achieves the typical offer and has a PS of required level, would the need for extra time decrease her chances of receiving an invitation for interview, or indeed an offer?

How do top Law Faculties in general view students who achieve their good grades with extra time?

I don't want to see her wasting time, so I'd appreciate some realistic advice. Thank you.

I'm pretty certain Cambridge would be breaking the law under the Equality Act 2010 for disability discrimination. The competition will be fierce regardless, you can be of brilliant health and amazing intelligence and not get into Oxbridge. It's only one of four choices, so if she has the desire. She should most definitely apply. With A*AA she will surely find another place even if it doesn't work out.
Original post by Realitysreflexx
I'm pretty certain Cambridge would be breaking the law under the Equality Act 2010 for disability discrimination. The competition will be fierce regardless, you can be of brilliant health and amazing intelligence and not get into Oxbridge. It's only one of four choices, so if she has the desire. She should most definitely apply. With A*AA she will surely find another place even if it doesn't work out.

I agree with your point of view, but because of the subjectivity of the PS, I wonder if they dismiss an application more easily if they know about the extra time.
Original post by nathan_nacu
This is the kind of question that should ONLY be answered by the Cambridge Law admissions team of her prospective college of application. If she’s not sure of a college I’m sure she can find one who can give a proper answer to this question,
Just my personal opinion but i dont think it’d matter because obviously extra time is given to people for a reason, would be rude to penalise your daughter for whatever reason hers is, probably discriminatory aswell. I’m attaching a picture with the email and number for the law school for quicker reference and will post a link to the course if you want


https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/law
Attachment not found

Thanks. I'll do that.
Reply 5
Your daughter's grades are average for Cambridge, don't focus too much on Cambridge, best to look at a plan B.

Students from state school nowadays get 3A* and have amazing personal statements, yet still can't get in due to fierce competition. UCL seems more of a realistic option, I'd look into that if I were you.

Even LSE is extremely tough to get into. LLB Law at LSE is in fact their most competitive course with 2,900 applying and 170 getting in (5-6% chance).

I am sorry for this brutally honest message but let's be real here, thousands of students achieve straight 9-8s (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/guide-to-gcse-results-for-england-2019) and many thousands of students achieve straight As from public, grammar and private schools. This is just in the UK. You then have to think about the international competition. LSE is notorious for having more internationals than UK students being their lowest intake.

I feel like parents nowadays pressurise their children too much on Oxbridge, not fully understanding what it fully takes to get into these unis. It is not just about grades, it is also about minor things like work experience / extra-curricular / things you've done to expand your knowledge of the subject be it a summer school at a target uni or some light reading in your spare time.

I am sorry for the lecture here but you only stated your daughters grades here and that isn't usually enough to get a place at Cambridge.

*I have not mentioned anything related to having a disability because:
1- receiving extra time is not seen as a bad thing at all, the extra time is given to compensate for the disability and universities agree on this
2- Cambridge will not reject your daughter because she's disabled nor give her higher chances for it, that's double standards
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by soeusei
Hello,
My daughter is currently in Y12 studying A Levels and is considering applying to Law at Cambridge in 2021. Her target grades (not predicted yet) are A*AA in Sociology, English Literature, Government and Politics, respectively.
GCSE grades- 9999888875 (9s were in EngLang/Lit,Spanish and RS, 8s in Maths, Sciences and Geography).
She received 25% extra time (and permission to wear ear plugs) in the exams and will continue to do so during A-Levels.
From the Cambridge University website I understand that she will have the opportunity to disclose her difficulties and request extra time for the CLT.

Assuming that she achieves the typical offer and has a PS of required level, would the need for extra time decrease her chances of receiving an invitation for interview, or indeed an offer?

How do top Law Faculties in general view students who achieve their good grades with extra time?

I don't want to see her wasting time, so I'd appreciate some realistic advice. Thank you.

No uni would discriminate against your daughter because she qualifies for extra time in exams.

I don’t see anything in your post to suggest that you are trying to pressurise your daughter to go to Cambridge, I see a concerned parent.

Nevertheless, it will be important for you to help her to manage her expectations and make good choices so that she can feel positive about her other uni options too and not focus too much on Cambridge :smile:
Original post by harrysbar
No uni would discriminate against your daughter because she qualifies for extra time in exams.

I don’t see anything in your post to suggest that you are trying to pressurise your daughter to go to Cambridge, I see a concerned parent.

Nevertheless, it will be important for you to help her to manage her expectations and make good choices so that she can feel positive about her other uni options too and not focus too much on Cambridge :smile:

Thanks for your input. She was never focused on Cambridge, actually it is the opposite. Until recently she thought it wasn'st for her and as you well guessed I don't pressurize her. And it's not all about top grades, she is very good at essay writing and debating and has a wide range of extra and super curricular activities. My only advice was that she shouldn't put herself down and would never find out her potential unless she tried.
Original post by soeusei
Hello,
My daughter is currently in Y12 studying A Levels and is considering applying to Law at Cambridge in 2021. Her target grades (not predicted yet) are A*AA in Sociology, English Literature, Government and Politics, respectively.
GCSE grades- 9999888875 (9s were in EngLang/Lit,Spanish and RS, 8s in Maths, Sciences and Geography).
She received 25% extra time (and permission to wear ear plugs) in the exams and will continue to do so during A-Levels.
From the Cambridge University website I understand that she will have the opportunity to disclose her difficulties and request extra time for the CLT.

Assuming that she achieves the typical offer and has a PS of required level, would the need for extra time decrease her chances of receiving an invitation for interview, or indeed an offer?

How do top Law Faculties in general view students who achieve their good grades with extra time?

I don't want to see her wasting time, so I'd appreciate some realistic advice. Thank you.


As the Reality Check who has done law at Cambridge, I feel well placed to answer. :smile:

The decision to give extra time has no relevance as to the validity of the results. Zero. The GCSEs and predicted A levels mean she is well placed to make a competitive application: she'd need then to concentrate on the CLT.
Original post by Reality Check
As the Reality Check who has done law at Cambridge, I feel well placed to answer. :smile:

The decision to give extra time has no relevance as to the validity of the results. Zero. The GCSEs and predicted A levels mean she is well placed to make a competitive application: she'd need then to concentrate on the CLT.

Nice one :smile:. That's good to know.

I guess my doubt arises from the possibility of unconscious bias arising within the context of inherent subjectivity of PS and interview, triggered by the assumption that there are executive weaknesses behind the need for extra time.

Is the offer rate for students requiring extra time similar to the standard time group, in otherwise similar circumstances?
Even if it isn't, it doesn't necessarily mean discrimination, unconcious or not, due to complex personal circumstances added to the degree of subjectivity associated with PS, interview and even CLT.
And not to mention luck, as having a better day than usual and interview questions that particularly suit you can increase confidence and performance.

This is just my impression of a system that I haven't experienced personally, as I applied many years ago to a highly competitive course in a different country with achieved grades and no interview or PS, just crazy competition to the decimal point in exam scores. By comparison the system in the UK is too complex and the use of predicted grades is baffling.

Many thanks.
Original post by soeusei


Is the offer rate for students requiring extra time similar to the standard time group, in otherwise similar circumstances?



- in your vast armoury of data, do you have anything about this perchance?


Even if it isn't, it doesn't necessarily mean discrimination, unconcious or not, due to complex personal circumstances added to the degree of subjectivity associated with PS, interview and even CLT.
And not to mention luck, as having a better day than usual and interview questions that particularly suit you can increase confidence and performance.

This is just my impression of a system that I haven't experienced personally, as I applied many years ago to a highly competitive course in a different country with achieved grades and no interview or PS, just crazy competition to the decimal point in exam scores. By comparison the system in the UK is too complex and the use of predicted grades is baffling.

Many thanks.


Whilst a lot of your points are understandable, I think you're overthinking it a bit too much. The interviewers aren't going to have a sheet of paper with 'this candidate needed extra time in their A levels' in front of them were you daughter to be interviewed. In fact, I doubt there would even be a note of it anywhere. Even if there were a note, there's nothing you could about it even if there were a subconscious bias, so there would be no point in worrying about it to begin with.

I think you just need to put your faith in the application system. The GCSEs and predicted A levels mean that your daughter should feel confident in being able to submit a competitive application. She'll be on a level playing field with the rest of her cohort, and you really shouldn't worry about this extra time thing :smile:
Original post by soeusei
Nice one :smile:. That's good to know.
Is the offer rate for students requiring extra time similar to the standard time group, in otherwise similar circumstances?


The university publishes admissions data, which you can find here: https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics which includes a section on application from those with declared disabilities. However bear in mind the numbers of applicants who declare disabilities are quite small compared, and not all who have a disability will declare it, so do take this data with a grain of salt.

Obviously disabilities including specific learning disabilities are protected by law, and it would be very bad for the university if they were found to be discriminating against applicants on the basis of protected characteristics. As such most, if not all, staff at the university have mandatory equality and diversity training which is pretty regularly reviewed to ensure it is up to date and relevant. It's also repeated (I believe yearly for admin staff such as myself at least), and in the most recent session I had they did specifically cover issues to do with unconscious/implicit bias. To my knowledge admissions staff have further specialised training for their role through the central uni administration and I imagine the individual colleges might also arrange training as they see fit.

Cambridge is, in my experience as an (non-academic, not admissions related) employee, very sensitive to such issues and works pretty hard to try an support them well. I imagine for students this is even more true, at least in terms of the central administration, as they have a dedicated disability resources centre and student counselling section that may be related to issues which require students to get extra time in exams. Additionally the overall administration (centrally at least) is very student focused (which may or may not be unsurprising depending on your perspective). Individual college arrangements may vary though.

Overall I think of all universities, Cambridge is one of the ones that is least likely to discriminate (consciously or not) against applicants who have extra time in exams. There is a lot of focus on accessibility and widening participation in terms of admissions and the student body, and numbers of students requiring extra time in exams at Cambridge has, to my understanding, been increasing in recent years. They are also very aware as an institution of the amount of publicity and public scrutiny they receive, and they are very careful to ensure their reputation is upheld. While this may not be the best reason to ensure they treat such matters with the appropriate care and sensitivity, it does mean they are at least!
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by Reality Check
@J Papi - in your vast armoury of data, do you have anything about this perchance?



Whilst a lot of your points are understandable, I think you're overthinking it a bit too much. The interviewers aren't going to have a sheet of paper with 'this candidate needed extra time in their A levels' in front of them were you daughter to be interviewed. In fact, I doubt there would even be a note of it anywhere. Even if there were a note, there's nothing you could about it even if there were a subconscious bias, so there would be no point in worrying about it to begin with.

I think you just need to put your faith in the application system. The GCSEs and predicted A levels mean that your daughter should feel confident in being able to submit a competitive application. She'll be on a level playing field with the rest of her cohort, and you really shouldn't worry about this extra time thing :smile:

Well, there will be a note somewhere that she'll take 25% extra time to do the CLT and requires maximum silence possible.
On the Cambridge website they recommend that students used to having extra time in exams should request similar circumstances for the CLT.
Original post by soeusei
Well, there will be a note somewhere that she'll take 25% extra time to do the CLT and requires maximum silence possible.
On the Cambridge website they recommend that students used to having extra time in exams should request similar circumstances for the CLT.

As I mentioned before, it will have no bearing on whether or not she is offered a place. That decision will be based on academic merit solely, gleaned from the various aspects of her application. Whether or not she required extra time in her public examinations, or the CLT, are irrelevant to this academic decision.
Original post by artful_lounger
The university publishes admissions data, which you can find here: https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics which includes a section on application from those with declared disabilities. However bear in mind the numbers of applicants who declare disabilities are quite small compared, and not all who have a disability will declare it, so do take this data with a grain of salt.

Obviously disabilities including specific learning disabilities are protected by law, and it would be very bad for the university if they were found to be discriminating against applicants on the basis of protected characteristics. As such most, if not all, staff at the university have mandatory equality and diversity training which is pretty regularly reviewed to ensure it is up to date and relevant. It's also repeated (I believe yearly for admin staff such as myself at least), and in the most recent session I had they did specifically cover issues to do with unconscious/implicit bias. To my knowledge admissions staff have further specialised training for their role through the central uni administration and I imagine the individual colleges might also arrange training as they see fit.

Cambridge is, in my experience as an employee, very sensitive to such issues and works pretty hard to try an support them well. I imagine for students this is even more true, at least in terms of the central administration, as they have a dedicated disability resources centre and student counselling section that may be related to issues which require students to get extra time in exams. Additionally the overall administration (centrally at least) is very student focused (which may or may not be unsurprising depending on your perspective). Individual college arrangements may vary though.

Overall I think of all universities, Cambridge is one of the ones that is least likely to discriminate against applicants who have extra time in exams. There is a lot of focus on accessibility and widening participation in terms of admissions and the student body, and numbers of students requiring extra time in exams at Cambridge has, to my understanding, been increasing in recent years. They are also very aware as an institution of the amount of publicity and public scrutiny they receive, and they are very careful to ensure their reputation is upheld. While this may not be the best reason to ensure they treat such matters with the appropriate care and sensitivity, it does mean they are at least!

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. I appreciate the huge effort undertaken by Cambridge to widen participation and insure fairness in the application process. I have actually told my daughter that an important reason why it would be worth applying to Cambridge is the excellent level of support provided to each individual student.
Original post by soeusei
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. I appreciate the huge effort undertaken by Cambridge to widen participation and insure fairness in the application process. I have actually told my daughter that an important reason why it would be worth applying to Cambridge is the excellent level of support provided to each individual student.


Yep; as above I think because of this, and because of the level of media scrutiny and public awareness of the university, it shouldn't affect her chances of admission, and they should be able to accommodate such requirements both for the admissions test and if she gets accepted, for her exams at the university (at least, the main exams; college based mock exams may vary).

Worst case scenario it's only one of five choices anyway so, if she is a realistic prospect for Cambridge in terms of grades (extra time notwithstanding) and meets any other requirements (e.g. is taking any required subjects for the course she is applying to) then there is no reason to not try for Cambridge :smile:
Original post by Reality Check
As I mentioned before, it will have no bearing on whether or not she is offered a place. That decision will be based on academic merit solely, gleaned from the various aspects of her application. Whether or not she required extra time in her public examinations, or the CLT, are irrelevant to this academic decision.

I trust your reassuring opinion and will not worry about it, and as you said, I should have faith on the system. Thanks again.

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