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    (Original post by 2026)
    Perhaps because people think most pursue life as a nun as entirely voluntary, as oppose to the hijab which may be directly or indirectly forced upon certain women. Just a thought.

    Note, I'm not saying that it is 'forced', though I'm sure that there are women whom it's forced upon. I'm just referring to possible perceptions.



    As far as many Muslims are concerned, neither is the hijab compulsory. To others, the veil is compulsory.
    I guess I have insufficient knowledge about whether the hijab and the veil is complusary or not. What I've been told is that the veil is not compulsary. Just that the women should cover herself properly. I do agree that some people to try to 'force' (shall we say) the hjiab on women, which is not allowed in Islam. The vast majority of muslims are not in fact following Islam properly, but their culture (which has bits of Islam in there). It's stupid, I know.
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    (Original post by Don_Kamikaze)
    Having people refer to you as "the terrorist" is not serious at all.
    When did this happen? I've never heard of people [in the real world - you get a lot of dicks online] refer to Muslims in the abstract as 'terrorists'.

    (Original post by Don_Kamikaze)
    Having your senior tutor saying that plagiarism is part of your culture is not serious at all.
    Again, has this happened to you? Since Islam is an ideology and not a culute, what does it have to do with Islam?

    (Original post by Don_Kamikaze)
    Having people throw garbage in front of your door and write rubbish on it is not serious at all.
    Has this happened to you personally? How do you know it was because you were a Muslim?

    (Original post by Don_Kamikaze)
    Getting a "random" extra screening whenever you are flying is not serious either.
    Everyone is subjected to extra security checks in airports and etc.
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    (Original post by Sk1lLz)
    The vast majority of muslims are not in fact following Islam properly, but their culture (which has bits of Islam in there). It's stupid, I know.
    Completely true. Too often people misinterpret cultural conduct as some sort of requirement set out by Islam. Education is the key, in my opinion.
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    (Original post by Bmoody)
    Thanks for the response Musti. I wanted to know what Muslims found positive in the West because we never hear that side. We always hear about loathing from Muslims, but knowing what Muslims like about us can be quite helpful in mending the cultural divide.
    Plenty of positive points, if "only they'd stop killing us" (the west, americans etc) -- that's the view in the Mid East generally. I heard that on a comedy but it's true. Contrary to popular belief, Muslims could not care less how westerner live their lives, that's not what offends them.

    Back to the topic. There has been nothing short of a phenomenal change in attitudes since 9/11 and further after 7/7. Any muslim experiences the day to day behaviour towards them-- fear, intimidation, distrust, paranoia and sometimes disgust amongst the general public. Alienation is normal, you can't blame people for feeling safer together.
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    (Original post by Don_Kamikaze)
    Yes it's not that serious.

    Having people refer to you as "the terrorist" is not serious at all.
    Having your senior tutor saying that plagiarism is part of your culture is not serious at all.
    Having people throw garbage in front of your door and write rubbish on it is not serious at all.
    Getting a "random" extra screening whenever you are flying is not serious either.

    Please, do not make a claim without knowing anything about it.
    Actually, if you read the post I was referring to, I was actually referring to the fact that it's not as serious as the poster mentioned: that discrimination occurs on a day-to-day basis.

    And also, the things which you mentioned are ridiculous. Referring to you as "the terrorist", well, that's the same as referring to black people as "*******" and so on. It happens, but I wouldn't call it that serious. Which senior tutor has ever mentioned that? Who has chucked garbage in front of your door?

    And airport security, if you read the online guide, actually points to "foreigners" and those with "large bags or big coats". But everyone is checked at airports and really, most "terrorists" have been foreigners, so it makes sense to maybe check foreigners more. Plus, they don't actually say to you, "oi, you're a Muslim so i'm checking you more"....

    It's just like immigration. If i'm an immigrant, I get checked more than if I'm a British citizen returning on holiday... Well, the British citizen could be carrying a bomb??
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    (Original post by 2026)
    When did this happen? I've never heard of people [in the real world - you get a lot of dicks online] refer to Muslims in the abstract as 'terrorists'.



    Again, has this happened to you? Since Islam is an ideology and not a culute, what does it have to do with Islam?



    Has this happened to you personally? How do you know it was because you were a Muslim?



    Everyone is subjected to extra security checks in airports and etc.
    I'm speaking to your from experience, and as for the things on the door I know because of the things that were written obviously...

    And in case you haven't noticed most people can't make the distinction between Arab and Muslim. If you want to know which senior tutor [edited] of Imperial College London.

    I'm talking about the extra screening, not the ones that all non-whites go through.
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    They strike me as people who take themselfs and there religion way way to seriously.
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    I would say in general, negative. I've seen numerous polls etc that most people wouldn't want to live next to a muslim, also, shortly after 7/7 the mosque in my town was burnt down, so obviously some ill feeling.

    But I personally am not sure, I don't know a lot about Islam, but what little bits I do hear sounds really good, it sounds like a lot of people in our country could learn from Islam, however due to their being 'terror' wars in the Muslim heartland I doubt appreciation of Islam will increase anytime soon.
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    (Original post by mire)
    as long as I know covering up is not even compulsory, look at Turkey and Turkish women. Most of them won't cover up and still are Muslims.
    Depends on how religious they are, Turkey is probably one of the most secular Muslim countries and having grown up in a city with a large Muslim population I've seen women abused physically and verbally for not wearing hijab or wearing hijab incorrectly.

    In answer to the question, as individuals I've found plenty of Muslims to be fine individuals but until Islam is reformed then, and this includes so called moderate Islam, is a threat to the West. It is impossible to respect Islam, as practiced by 99% of Muslims, and at the same time respect rights for homosexuals. Likewise Islam and freedom of religion are incompatible, the penalty for apostasy in Islam is death.

    In the United Kingdom it is already impossible to blaspheme against Mohammed due to fear of violence, that is why no UK media outlet reprinted/broadcast the pictures of the Mohammed cartoons.

    Having just thrown off the shackles of Christianity, if current demographic trends continue, in Europe they will be replaced by the shackles of Islam.
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    Don't know anyone who just says outright that all Muslims are the same.

    I only know one muslim who everyone holds 7/7 and 11/9 against, and that's because he said they were good things because of the reasons the terrorists gave.

    Yeah, he got beat up by a whole class as soon as they got out of that room. Usually I'd sympathise and say no-one deserves to be beaten up for voicing their opinion, but when I heard about that one...
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    Islam has come to what we call 'modernity' late in comparison to Christianity, which was actually 'present' at the transformation of society by capitalism, liberalism and secularisation. Of course Islam seems in some instances and localities to be 'behind the times' when compared to present day Christianity as practiced in the west; but we shouldn't forget how only a century or two ago in western Europe it was itself a dominant and conservative social and cultural force which showed little toleration of anything which contradicted its power and values. Historical context needs to be included in our understanding. Not everything happens overnight.
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    (Original post by dandon_30)
    God aka "allah" in muslim vocabulary
    Arabic :yy:
    Simply because it really annoys me when people say things like "God hates Allah":rolleyes:. Coptic and Arab Chrisitians say Allah as well.
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    (Original post by pretz)
    Depends on how religious they are, Turkey is probably one of the most secular Muslim countries and having grown up in a city with a large Muslim population I've seen women abused physically and verbally for not wearing hijab or wearing hijab incorrectly.

    In answer to the question, as individuals I've found plenty of Muslims to be fine individuals but until Islam is reformed then, and this includes so called moderate Islam, is a threat to the West. It is impossible to respect Islam, as practiced by 99% of Muslims, and at the same time respect rights for homosexuals. Likewise Islam and freedom of religion are incompatible, the penalty for apostasy in Islam is death.

    In the United Kingdom it is already impossible to blaspheme against Mohammed due to fear of violence, that is why no UK media outlet reprinted/broadcast the pictures of the Mohammed cartoons.

    Having just thrown off the shackles of Christianity, if current demographic trends continue, in Europe they will be replaced by the shackles of Islam.
    Yes, it's a rule in Islam that women wear the veil but I've lived in a Muslim country all my life and I've never seen anybody being forced to wear it tbh. It's more of a choice in general and most of the Muslims I know don't even wear it.

    I'm a Muslim and I respect homosexuals. I don't see what you're going at tbh. Just because I'm a Muslim doesn't mean I'm incapable of respecting the views/beliefs, or the life choices they've made for themselves.
    Also, the Quran reads (in 2:256) that "There is no comulsion in religion". If you leave Islam you're not killed, it's only when you leave it and use that as means of turning people against it that you are punished. Also, that will generally only apply in Muslim countries where the Muslim Sharia is applied, which Britian is not.

    That's not true - there are hundreds of articles out there which are quite clearly disrespectful to Islam and Muslims in general. The Mohammed cartoons were very offensive as well - plus i think this subject has been discussed hundreds of time and we can't just spend our lives dwelling on this one incident, and then judging the behaviour of all Muslims through it.
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    (Original post by pretz)
    Depends on how religious they are, Turkey is probably one of the most secular Muslim countries and having grown up in a city with a large Muslim population I've seen women abused physically and verbally for not wearing hijab or wearing hijab incorrectly.

    In answer to the question, as individuals I've found plenty of Muslims to be fine individuals but until Islam is reformed then, and this includes so called moderate Islam, is a threat to the West. It is impossible to respect Islam, as practiced by 99% of Muslims, and at the same time respect rights for homosexuals. Likewise Islam and freedom of religion are incompatible, the penalty for apostasy in Islam is death.

    In the United Kingdom it is already impossible to blaspheme against Mohammed due to fear of violence, that is why no UK media outlet reprinted/broadcast the pictures of the Mohammed cartoons.

    Having just thrown off the shackles of Christianity, if current demographic trends continue, in Europe they will be replaced by the shackles of Islam.
    Firstly, saying that Muslim countries are oppressive if they force women to wear the hijab and that it is against human rights is perfectly fine with me. So long as you say the same about countries that force women to take off the hijab...

    Secondly, how is Islam a threat to the West? The west in general hates anything that doesn't agree with them and they usually resort to force. As for the homosexuality issue you can't force people to allow gay marriage. As far as I'm concerned most religions condemn homosexuality so Christianity is a threat too, eh? You have a freedom in choosing your religion, no one is born a Muslim. Sitting at a dinner table doesn't make you a diner. The death penalty thing has specific criteria, but as usual people read what they want and abandon the rest.

    Thirdly, why would anyone want to insult another person? If that's freedom of speech then to hell with it. So much for living peacefully together, that can't happen if we keep throwing insults at each other. Some might say that we should do the same about Jesus, but we don't for a few reason:
    1. Muslims believe in Jesus too.
    2. We won't sink to that level.
    3. Why insult everyone when only a few attacked us?

    Finally, the shackles of Christianity affected everyone including non-Christians. I don't think the "shackles" of Islam will hinder non-Muslims, a proof of that is Al-Andalus and historical events where Jews, Christians and Arabs lived peacefully together. One may be wrong about this assumption, but who knows. This is not saying anything against Christianity, I'm merely talking about historical events.
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    (Original post by mire)
    as long as I know covering up is not even compulsory, look at Turkey and Turkish women. Most of them won't cover up and still are Muslims.
    Veiling represents a number of different traditions, many of which are not, as the media often portrayed, associated with illiterate, subdued peasant women. For example, the practice of veiling in Egypt (that is, not Bedouin veiling, which is quite different) is predominantly practiced by urban, literate and professional women, including university students. The innovation of fashions related to veiling are intricate, whilst the motivations vary; for some, it is a norm, an established fashionable trend. For others, it is a means to reconcile traditional, Islamic values (i.e., honour, modesty, autonomy) with supermodernity and the flux of urban living. In much the same way migrants may maintain cultural practices in a new environment (such as flying a flag, or celebrating certain festivals), veiling connects Islam, elements of Arabic culture, and modernity.

    Of course, there are women who are forced by their husbands to wear the veil, just as, in Christian families in the US (for example), some women are required to be a Good Christian; to be a domestic helpmeet for their husband, to dress modestly. The chimera is, however, that by focusing on the veil, self-styled reformers believe that all issues concerning patriarchy and social disparity will simply fade away. Ironically, for many women (and here the Bedouin of Egypt are relevant), veiling is an act of the greatest power, a means to conform to the values of society (therefore, to gain status within). Veiling is not a default practice, but something used in interpersonal politics; who you choose to veil for, and who you choose not to veil for, are very powerful indicators. Equally, as for the Burqa, this is a traditionally Pashtun practice, of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and, despite the claims that during the Taliban era, "women were forced to veil", they had indeed been doing so for centuries before.
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    The treatment to Muslims in Europe nowadays is not too dissimal to Jews pre WW2, it may surprise u to no that in 1933, Germans marched in solidarity with Jews after an anti-jewish attack, but within 10 years of sustained propganda, the hearts and minds of ppl had changed. Muslims face so much propoganda against them (if u saw c4 dispatches where the sun simply made up stories). Increasingly Muslims are being scapegoated. A jewish attack on the German embassy in 1939 in France, sparked a sustained attack against jews in germany. I mean if u saw the c4 documentary, the sun ran an article saying that muslim doctors were blamed of spreading thousings of superbugs to patients, i mean wtf?
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    (Original post by Don_Kamikaze)
    Firstly, saying that Muslim countries are oppressive if they force women to wear the hijab and that it is against human rights is perfectly fine with me. So long as you say the same about countries that force women to take off the hijab...
    Well, to use two examples - France and Turkey, the hijab is not 'banned' but religious symbols in general are not permitted. That is secularism, not oppression, there are far more countries in the world where wearing hijab is permitted in public institutions so French and Turkish Muslims are hardly oppressed.

    Secondly, how is Islam a threat to the West? The west in general hates anything that doesn't agree with them and they usually resort to force.
    I would argue that Islam is a threat to Western values insofar that Islam is not compatible with Western liberal values such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, tolerance of homosexuality, the right to abortion and other issues such as acceptability of stem cell research. I don't see how the West "hates anything that doesn't agree with them" considering the fact that the UK and much of the rest of Western Europe has become a safe haven for those persecuted in their own countries, in many cases this has even included Islamists.

    Thirdly, why would anyone want to insult another person? If that's freedom of speech then to hell with it. So much for living peacefully together, that can't happen if we keep throwing insults at each other.
    Criticising Islam is not criticising another person, I can criticise Marxism or Capitalism without being accused of inciting political hatred and there is no reason why that should be any different to Islam which in itself is an ideology.

    Some might say that we should do the same about Jesus, but we don't for a few reason:
    1. Muslims believe in Jesus too.
    2. We won't sink to that level.
    3. Why insult everyone when only a few attacked us?
    That's okay, unlike in the Islamic world we in the West can laugh at ourselves and most of us don't even care. Hell, blasphemy is very popular here! The Life of Brian is the favourite film of a lot of people.

    Finally, the shackles of Christianity affected everyone including non-Christians. I don't think the "shackles" of Islam will hinder non-Muslims, a proof of that is Al-Andalus and historical events where Jews, Christians and Arabs lived peacefully together. One may be wrong about this assumption, but who knows. This is not saying anything against Christianity, I'm merely talking about historical events.
    Al-Andalus is used as an example of 'religious tolerance' but in reality it wasn't at all by modern standards, Al-Andalus was run as an Islamist state where Jews and Christians faced discrimination at every level and like in the rest of the Islamic world were forced to pay an extra tax for the crime of not being Muslim. As I'm sure you know at the time the Islamic world was more progressive than Western Christianity in many aspects but to pretend that Al-Andalus was some kind of multicultural paradise is absolutely wrong.
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    (Original post by pretz)
    Well, to use two examples - France and Turkey, the hijab is not 'banned' but religious symbols in general are not permitted. That is secularism, not oppression, there are far more countries in the world where wearing hijab is permitted in public institutions so French and Turkish Muslims are hardly oppressed.

    I would argue that Islam is a threat to Western values insofar that Islam is not compatible with Western liberal values such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, tolerance of homosexuality, the right to abortion and other issues such as acceptability of stem cell research. I don't see how the West "hates anything that doesn't agree with them" considering the fact that the UK and much of the rest of Western Europe has become a safe haven for those persecuted in their own countries, in many cases this has even included Islamists.

    Criticising Islam is not criticising another person, I can criticise Marxism or Capitalism without being accused of inciting political hatred and there is no reason why that should be any different to Islam which in itself is an ideology.

    That's okay, unlike in the Islamic world we in the West can laugh at ourselves and most of us don't even care. Hell, blasphemy is very popular here! The Life of Brian is the favourite film of a lot of people.

    Al-Andalus is used as an example of 'religious tolerance' but in reality it wasn't at all by modern standards, Al-Andalus was run as an Islamist state where Jews and Christians faced discrimination at every level and like in the rest of the Islamic world were forced to pay an extra tax for the crime of not being Muslim. As I'm sure you know at the time the Islamic world was more progressive than Western Christianity in many aspects but to pretend that Al-Andalus was some kind of multicultural paradise is absolutely wrong.
    Ok, it's not opression. It's secularism, but isn't that limiting the freedom of the citizens?

    Europe is a safe haven? Please... You argue that Al-Andalus wasn't tolerant, how is Europe tolerant now? Non-Muslims in muslim kingdoms were protected and had their rights, so the "tax" you are referring to was protection. Europe is not giving your (alleged) paradise for free, yet foreigners are facing discrimination. There is also historical evidence that non-muslims could get to high positions in society in Al-Andalus.

    You fail to differentiate between ideology and religion. Plus we are all different, if insulting one's father is alright with that person it might not be alright if you do it to another. We would respect your beliefs and in return we ask for the same. You are actually backing up my claim of hating "anything that doesn't agree with them" as we don't agree with insulting religions and we are being attacked for it. If your safe haven requires people to have the same values, same culture and attitude then I really don't want to live in it.

    I'd have to agree that Islam is a threat to the west. It's a threat as it is against many of the things made popular by the west such as apartheid, drinking and slavery. I don't see why you don't say the same about Christianity/Judaism, I'm pretty sure abortion/homosexuality aren't popular there either.
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    (Original post by Don_Kamikaze)
    Ok, it's not opression. It's secularism, but isn't that limiting the freedom of the citizens?

    Europe is a safe haven? Please... You argue that Al-Andalus wasn't tolerant, how is Europe tolerant now? Non-Muslims in Al-Andalus were protected and had their rights, so the "tax" you are referring to was protection. Europe is not giving your (alleged) paradise for free, yet foreigners are facing discrimination.

    You fail to differentiate between ideology and religion. Plus we are all different, if insulting one's father is alright with that person it might not be alright if you do it to another. We would respect your beliefs and in return we ask for the same. You are actually backing up my claim of hating "anything that doesn't agree with them" as we don't agree with insulting religions and we are being attacked for it. If your safe haven requires people to have the same values, same culture and attitude then I really don't want to live in it.

    I'd have to agree that Islam is a threat to the west. It's a threat as it is against many of the things made popular by the west such as apartheid, drinking and slavery. I don't see why you don't say the same about Christianity/Judaism, I'm pretty sure abortion/homosexuality aren't popular there either.
    In the west people are free to speak their mind. If someone gets insulted by anothers view on their religion then why is it that persons fault for holding that view? Why is it not equally the insulted persons fault for being insulted?

    The downside of living in a society with freedom of speach is that you may hear things you don't like. The upside is that you can say what you like.

    This "discrimanation" is not physical, it is verbal the majority of the time. If you choose to be insulted by what we have to say go back to a country where no one is allowed to say anything against Islam.

    The point trying to be made, i think, is that Islam, and religion in general, upholds that certian values are unquestionable. But in western society we try uphold - and admitedly we sometimes fail - that everything is questionable.
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    hmm had to get onto this thread, its been a while since I been on properly....
    Basically, no one is a muslim anymore, even in Saudi Arabia and the middle east its not like it should be. And the fundementalist's have just taken it even further away from what is is. But thats all political anyway, and terrorism is quite rational, even though its wrong. No one could die for a cause except some one whose been brainwashed; mulla's are great at that, cuz they can exploit anglo-american activity, Iraq/Afgan war, as well as saudi puppetage which all act as incentives for terrorism; people follow incentives (bit of behaivirul econ there...), but these extremists go the whole hog and kill themselves; and you cant defeat that without dealing with the cause and not just the effect. The best way to stop terrorism is to not give the terrorists a reason. Again its all political

    uhh lets see, Gayism is wrong anyway, its rank and just plain disgusting, social corruption, but I personally couldnt care less if he did or did not get killed, but thats just me...

    ummmmm Turkey is NOT a muslim country, the Hijab is BANNED, and you are forbidden have a beard.

    Oh and abt the modernity thing and islam is backward and all that; its precisely the point. Social evolution has been corruptive (social, not technological). Islam is perfect, muslims are not, and no matter how hard a muslim justifies terrorism, he wont be able to; muslims who do **** wrong like that are just bad people. Islam is never a reason why something bad is done; its always protrayed like it is; the reason for doing something wrong is down to human nature (ie incentives), and not islam. Similar for all religions, but no one is actually a proper christian, muslim, jew etc anymore but muslims have managed to cling on to the roots more than jews, who have done so more than christians. This is due to social corruption and westernization (which incidentally the Quran forwarns us about), and so we will have hell to pay, literally.
 
 
 
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