Boris will not win a majority Watch

AngryRedhead
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#81
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#81
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
1) You have a strange misinterpretation of how our democracy works. How do you wish to enact the results of other elections, in your eyes?

2) it's not irrelevant, it's very relevant because that's how you got to your figure. Do you understand the implications of your arguments? If you exclude sections of the population, you are not talking about the population :rolleyes::facepalm:
1) Proportional Representation, obviously

2) Read what I said again; Leave still comes out as a minority % even excluding those who couldn’t vote (the population members you mentioned above) due to the fact that the Remain vote and the % that could vote but didn’t outnumber the Leave vote. It’s very simple maths (even ignoring the fact the referendum was purely advisory and not legally binding) but you seem to be having a hard time grasping it.

I’m quite not sure how much more simply it can be put to you; maybe look at the pie chart in the link I posted in my previous post to understand?

I suspect that rather than the fact you can’t understand; it is that you don’t want to understand, in which case this conversation is even more pointless. I suspect you will have more hardship when Brexit actually happens than what has currently happened to you when we haven’t even left the EU yet.
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AngryRedhead
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#82
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(Original post by HedgePig)
It will make a difference to you: for one thing it’ll take you longer to get through immigration each time you fly to Europe
A minor inconvenience; certainly not comparable to the loss of ones livelihood. Hopefully it won’t be that much longer if something equivalent can be agreed in any future trade deals that occur.
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Burton Bridge
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#83
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#83
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
1) Proportional Representation, obviously

2) Read what I said again; Leave still comes out as a minority % even excluding those who couldn’t vote (the population members you mentioned above) due to the fact that the Remain vote and the % that could vote but didn’t outnumber the Leave vote. It’s very simple maths (even ignoring the fact the referendum was purely advisory and not legally binding) but you seem to be having a hard time grasping it.

I’m quite not sure how much more simply it can be put to you; maybe look at the pie chart in the link I posted in my previous post to understand?

I suspect that rather than the fact you can’t understand; it is that you don’t want to understand, in which case this conversation is even more pointless. I suspect you will have more hardship when Brexit actually happens than what has currently happened to you when we haven’t even left the EU yet.
1) I voted against AV and I have to admit I regret doing so, I made the wrong call. Farage is talking about the possibility of campaigning for PR after brexit is over, you might have more in common with him than you think. However you cannot enact a different system to what we have now, we voted for FPTP and that's the system we should use. You dont seem to respect democracy much?

2) No I understand fully what you are saying, but it nonsensical, it's you that's not grasping logic. You are adding everyone who did not, could not or should not vote to your chosen tally. Its nonsense and its not the system we work on.

3) There you go again, I understand fully. You got the maturity to apologise for your insults lies and slurs thats been proved untrue you cast towards me yet?
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 month ago
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AngryRedhead
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#84
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#84
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
1) I voted against AV and I have to admit I regret doing so, I made the wrong call. Farage is talking about the possibility of campaigning for PR after brexit is over, you might have more in common with him than you think. However you cannot enact a different system to what we have now, we voted for FPTP and that's the system we should use. You dont seem to respect democracy much?

2) No I understand fully what you are saying, but it nonsensical, it's you that's not grasping logic. You are adding everyone who did not, could not or should not vote to your chosen tally. Its nonsense and its not the system we work on.

3) There you go again, I understand fully. You got the maturity to apologise for your insults lies and slurs towards me yet?
1) I didn’t and have never voted in favour of FPTP; I think it’s ****e and always have done. Since when have the British electorate had a vote on FPTP vs PR? This has never happened to my knowledge (unless I missed it)

True democracy isn’t 37% pushing their will on the rest as I’ve already said

2) How is it nonsensical? Do you not understand percentages? Simple maths my dude. This is primary school stage maths

3) You have insulted other users, although maybe not me in this discussion; I’ve seen it many times on here.

No, before you ask I’m not going to trawl through your post history looking for your rude responses to QE2 and other users on here because I have better things to do with my time.

As for your apology, you’ll get it when Boris decides to actually prove me wrong
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Burton Bridge
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#85
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
1) I didn’t and have never voted in favour of FPTP; I think it’s ****e and always have done. Since when have the British electorate had a vote on FPTP vs PR? This has never happened to my knowledge (unless I missed it)

True democracy isn’t 37% pushing their will on the rest as I’ve already said

2) How is it nonsensical? Do you not understand percentages? Simple maths my dude. This is primary school stage maths

3) You have insulted other users, although maybe not me in this discussion; I’ve seen it many times on here.

No, before you ask I’m not going to trawl through your post history looking for your rude responses to QE2 and other users on here because I have better things to do with my time.

As for your apology, you’ll get it when Boris decides to actually prove me wrong
1) You have missed it or maybe are political unaware. We had a referendum on Alternative voting system Vs FPTP in 2011, maybe you were too young but I was not born in 1973 but I still know that's when we joined the EEC .

2) you keep assuming I don't understand, do t worry about what I understand worry about what you don't! The list is growing quite large, it's nonsense because it's not the system our parliament agreed to. it's quite funny watching you wiggle like a maggot on a hook on this, however you cut it, remain got less of a percentage than leave. Leave supporting parties have won every national election since 2015 and remain ones have been rejected. Wake up

3) You have amazing issues regarding creating a balanced view, do you condone insults or not? If you have better things to do with your time, off you go. You clearly don't and you clearly do care even though you claim you don't. Maybe stop lying and start telling the truth.
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Varss
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#86
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#86
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
1) Proportional Representation, obviously

2) Read what I said again; Leave still comes out as a minority % even excluding those who couldn’t vote (the population members you mentioned above) due to the fact that the Remain vote and the % that could vote but didn’t outnumber the Leave vote. It’s very simple maths (even ignoring the fact the referendum was purely advisory and not legally binding) but you seem to be having a hard time grasping it.

I’m quite not sure how much more simply it can be put to you; maybe look at the pie chart in the link I posted in my previous post to understand?

I suspect that rather than the fact you can’t understand; it is that you don’t want to understand, in which case this conversation is even more pointless. I suspect you will have more hardship when Brexit actually happens than what has currently happened to you when we haven’t even left the EU yet.
honestly don't waste ur time replying to this mug
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AngryRedhead
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
1) You have missed it or maybe are political unaware. We had a referendum on Alternative voting system Vs FPTP in 2011, maybe you were too young but I was not born in 1973 but I still know that's when we joined the EEC .

2) you keep assuming I don't understand, do t worry about what I understand worry about what you don't! The list is growing quite large, it's nonsense because it's not the system our parliament agreed to. it's quite funny watching you wiggle like a maggot on a hook on this, however you cut it, remain got less of a percentage than leave. Leave supporting parties have won every national election since 2015 and remain ones have been rejected. Wake up

3) You have amazing issues regarding creating a balanced view, do you condone insults or not? If you have better things to do with your time, off you go. You clearly don't and you clearly do care even though you claim you don't. Maybe stop lying and start telling the truth.
1) Ah that’ll be why; I was too young to vote in 2011 anyway

2) It is a simple fact of mathematics that the Leave vote was statistically a minority percentage and thus does not represent the will of the UK population irrespective of what of you or anyone else says. You can rightfully claim that 37% of the UK population voted for Leave, you cannot reasonably claim that Leave is the Will of the people, the majority view, or any of these other claims I’ve seen tossed around that just don’t hold up to the maths. I’ve said enough of this and honestly I’m getting rather tired of repeating it. It is frankly ridiculous that we’re in a situation whereby we are potentially going to be tanking our economy and relationship with the EU on the basis of what only 37% of the UK population wants in a referendum that wasn’t even legally binding in the first instance

3) I don’t care about insults; nothing you can say to insult me can really bother me; but for you some reason you seem to be upset I called you gullible for trusting the word of a man with a record of lying and caring only about the rich and powerful
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TheMcSame
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#88
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#88
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
2) How is it nonsensical? Do you not understand percentages? Simple maths my dude. This is primary school stage maths
It's nonsensical in the sense that for Brexit you used everyone who voted. Yet for remain, you're using not only everyone who voted, but also those who didn't or couldn't vote. The population will not only include people who have been granted citizenship but also pretty much everyone living there (it gets a bit blurry when it comes to those with NFA for obvious reasons).

There's also the argument there that just because they didn't vote, doesn't mean they wanted to remain. It's a similar argument to letting 16 y/os vote during the Brexit vote. Oh they couldn't vote, but if they could they'd vote remain and remain would've won (Fun fact: it wouldn't've won)

I mean, if we want to play the 'well these people didn't say this, therefore X'...

In a recent survey, only 42% of people in the UK believed the EU was a good thing. Therefore 58% of people would vote leave in a second referendum

The only differences here is that my claim actually has some tangible representation, the same survey was carried out in the later of half of 2016 and found only 47% of people in the UK thought the EU was a good thing compared to the 48% and some spare change that voted to remain in the referendum, suggesting the vast majority of people who didn't believe the EU is a good thing would actually vote leave. While your claim is based on little more than an assumption which, by my reckoning, is actually disproven by this very survey.
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AngryRedhead
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#89
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#89
(Original post by TheMcSame)
It's nonsensical in the sense that for Brexit you used everyone who voted. Yet for remain, you're using not only everyone who voted, but also those who didn't or couldn't vote. The population will not only include people who have been granted citizenship but also pretty much everyone living there (it gets a bit blurry when it comes to those with NFA for obvious reasons).

There's also the argument there that just because they didn't vote, doesn't mean they wanted to remain. It's a similar argument to letting 16 y/os vote during the Brexit vote. Oh they couldn't vote, but if they could they'd vote remain and remain would've won (Fun fact: it wouldn't've won)

I mean, if we want to play the 'well these people didn't say this, therefore X'...

In a recent survey, only 42% of people in the UK believed the EU was a good thing. Therefore 58% of people would vote leave in a second referendum

The only differences here is that my claim actually has some tangible representation, the same survey was carried out in the later of half of 2016 and found only 47% of people in the UK thought the EU was a good thing compared to the 48% and some spare change that voted to remain in the referendum, suggesting the vast majority of people who didn't believe the EU is a good thing would actually vote leave. While your claim is based on little more than an assumption which, by my reckoning, is actually disproven by this very survey.
That’s because Remain is the current beneficial default which has benefitted us economically ever since we entered the EEC in the 1970’s. We have gone from being known as the sick man of Europe to the (recently before we got downgraded) 5th largest economy in the world. It makes no sense to pull us out of a union that has largely benefitted us on the basis of the vote of 37% of the overall UK population. The EU doesn’t just benefit those who are eligible to vote in the UK, it extends to UK citizens overseas and everyone else who is British but unable to vote for whatever reason. As I’ve said before on this thread even if you discount those who couldn’t vote, Leave is still in the minority as it is outnumbered by the % of those who voted Remain and those who didn’t vote but could vote.

Do you have a source for the poll you cite? My guess is that the overall number they sampled in the poll was far far less than the number that actually voted in the referendum and you also have to take into account that some people who voted Remain in the referendum would have done so for practical/ economic reasons (such as my father did) despite not identifying as a europhile on these polls
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imlikeahermit
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#90
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(Original post by AngryRedhead)
A minor inconvenience; certainly not comparable to the loss of ones livelihood. Hopefully it won’t be that much longer if something equivalent can be agreed in any future trade deals that occur.
It’s fine mate, according to all the brexiteers, all these financial experts are lying. We’re gonna be all cushty after leaving the single market, jobs aplenty, countries lining up at the door, nhs given £350 million a week extra, poverty sorted out, no one sitting on the dole for life, crime rates down, no murder, no racism, no bigotry, equality for all. Honestly, gonna be absolutely tremendous when we leave, cannot ****ing wait...





























Lol, jk... were ****ed.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#91
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#91
Dont care if you vote UKIP, Green, Tory or anything else, FPTP is a relic of a system and not suitable in the 21st century
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username5083146
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#92
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
It’s fine mate, according to all the brexiteers, all these financial experts are lying. We’re gonna be all cushty after leaving the single market, jobs aplenty, countries lining up at the door, nhs given £350 million a week extra, poverty sorted out, no one sitting on the dole for life, crime rates down, no murder, no racism, no bigotry, equality for all. Honestly, gonna be absolutely tremendous when we leave, cannot ****ing wait...





























Lol, jk... were ****ed.
Tbh, we are already pretty much ****ed.
Last edited by username5083146; 1 month ago
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ColinDent
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#93
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#93
(Original post by AngryRedhead)
That’s because Remain is the current beneficial default which has benefitted us economically ever since we entered the EU in the 1970’s. We have gone from being known as the sick man of Europe to the (recently before we got downgraded) 5th largest economy in the world. It makes no sense to pull us out of a union that has largely benefitted us on the basis of the vote of 37% of the overall UK population. The EU doesn’t just benefit those who are eligible to vote in the UK, it extends to UK citizens overseas and everyone else who is British but unable to vote for whatever reason. As I’ve said before on this thread even if you discount those who couldn’t vote, Leave is still in the minority as it is outnumbered by the % of those who voted Remain and those who didn’t vote but could vote.

Do you have a source for the poll you cite? My guess is that the overall number they sampled in the poll was far far less than the number that actually voted in the referendum and you also have to take into account that some people who voted Remain in the referendum would have done so for practical/ economic reasons (such as my father did) despite not identifying as a europhile on these polls
We didn't enter the EU until the 90's, the EEC which we joined in the 70's was a very different beast as it was not a political union.
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AngryRedhead
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(Original post by ColinDent)
We didn't enter the EU until the 90's, the EEC which we joined in the 70's was a very different beast as it was not a political union.
I knew that; I’d just forgotten the acronym. I meant the single market anyway, the EEC. Thanks for the correction
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ColinDent
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#95
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
It’s fine mate, according to all the brexiteers, all these financial experts are lying. We’re gonna be all cushty after leaving the single market, jobs aplenty, countries lining up at the door, nhs given £350 million a week extra, poverty sorted out, no one sitting on the dole for life, crime rates down, no murder, no racism, no bigotry, equality for all. Honestly, gonna be absolutely tremendous when we leave, cannot ****ing wait...





























Lol, jk... were ****ed.
In some people's opinion, others would disagree.
No opinion is fact until it has been proven to be correct.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by AngryRedhead)
I knew that; I’d just forgotten the acronym. I meant the single market anyway, the EEC
The EEC wasn't the single market, it was a trading block with no political ties, it was known as the common market which is maybe why you are confused on the matter.
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AngryRedhead
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(Original post by ColinDent)
The EEC wasn't the single market, it was a trading block with no political ties, it was known as the common market which is maybe why you are confused on the matter.
Ah, well thank you again, hopefully you get the jist of what I’m trying to say though; the membership of thereof trading bloc has generally benefitted us economically. If we could retain the current single market membership without the political aspect that would be optimal but it doesn’t seem realistic
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TheMcSame
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(Original post by AngryRedhead)
it extends to UK citizens overseas and everyone else who is British but unable to vote for whatever reason.
All relevant British citizens who were registered to vote, could vote, overseas or not. Just to list who was eligible:
  • British Citizens
  • Irish Citizens (presumably just Northern Irish, though potentially Irish citizens with UK residency)
  • Commonwealth migrants with resident status
  • British expats registered to a constituency less than 15 years ago (frankly, if you hadn't been registered in a constituency for more than 15 years, you're probably not returning to the UK and almost certainly qualify for residency in what country you've relocated to)
  • Even the House of Lords, who can't normally vote, were able to vote.

Do you have a source for the poll you cite? My guess is that the overall number they sampled in the poll was far far less than the number that actually voted in the referendum
Of course the number is less, that's literally how these surveys and polls work. They aim to take a representative sample to get the opinion at large. Sometimes that fails and the data doesn't turn out to be representative for whatever reason, sometimes it works with stellar accuracy. That's why I mention that their survey around the time of the Brexit vote was only 1% and some spare change off the vote itself. It isn't realistic to expect them to literally get everyone to fill out the survey, especially when the survey is conducted across the EU28.

As for my source?

Well, I'm glad you asked, it's straight from the horse's mouth. The European Parliament themselves.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-yo...ends-edition-6

Page 16 of the downloadable PDF marked "UK" within the ZIP file.
Last edited by TheMcSame; 1 month ago
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AngryRedhead
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(Original post by TheMcSame)
All relevant British citizens who were registered to vote, could vote, overseas or not. Just to list who was eligible:
  • British Citizens
  • Irish Citizens (presumably just Northern Irish, though potentially Irish citizens with UK residency)
  • Commonwealth migrants with resident status
  • British expats registered to a constituency less than 15 years ago (frankly, if you hadn't been registered in a constituency for more than 15 years, you're probably not returning to the UK and almost certainly qualify for residency in what country you've relocated to)
  • Even the House of Lords, who can't normally vote, were able to vote.


Of course the number is less, that's literally how these surveys and polls work. They aim to take a representative sample to get the opinion at large. Sometimes that fails and the data doesn't turn out to be representative for whatever reason, sometimes it works with stellar accuracy. That's why I mention that their survey around the time of the Brexit vote was only 1% and some spare change off the vote itself. It isn't realistic to expect them to literally get everyone to fill out the survey, especially when the survey is conducted across the EU28.

As for my source?

Well, I'm glad you asked, it's straight from the horse's mouth. The European Parliament themselves.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-yo...ends-edition-6

Page 16 of the downloadable PDF marked "UK" within the ZIP file.
As I said before I know quite a few people who voted Remain who weren’t big fans of the EU as a political entity itself, so I’d take an opinion poll on this matter with several teaspoons of salt
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SteveyStack
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(Original post by AngryRedhead)
1) Ah that’ll be why; I was too young to vote in 2011 anyway

2) It is a simple fact of mathematics that the Leave vote was statistically a minority percentage and thus does not represent the will of the UK population irrespective of what of you or anyone else says. You can rightfully claim that 37% of the UK population voted for Leave, you cannot reasonably claim that Leave is the Will of the people, the majority view, or any of these other claims I’ve seen tossed around that just don’t hold up to the maths. I’ve said enough of this and honestly I’m getting rather tired of repeating it. It is frankly ridiculous that we’re in a situation whereby we are potentially going to be tanking our economy and relationship with the EU on the basis of what only 37% of the UK population wants in a referendum that wasn’t even legally binding in the first instance

3) I don’t care about insults; nothing you can say to insult me can really bother me; but for you some reason you seem to be upset I called you gullible for trusting the word of a man with a record of lying and caring only about the rich and powerful
This is always the most flawed argument because by your logic we should allow (and I’ve made the exact percentage up) 34% of the country decide because you know better.

Fail to respect democracy and you may as well go live in Syria. Just because your opinion wasn’t the same as the majority doesn’t make them wrong. Plenty of intelligent people voted for brexit and there were plenty of uninformed remain votes (such as mine). The reason you keep having to argue about this is because your logic is dumb to say the least and while mathematically correct we may as well not have a government as no party ever gets to 37% of the population voting for it
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