We've had our "People's Vote" and now have the "People's Government" suck it up Watch

generallee
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...Remainers.

That is the big takeaway from this election. It was in effect a second referendum on Brexit.

The Tories (thank to Farage) united the Leave Vote, Remain as always were divided. And of course had the worst Labour Leader since George Lansbury, perhaps ever at the helm. That was a huge help, thanks Jeremy.

Remainers have been outwitted by Leave at every turn. It was like a Harvard Business School Case Study on how not to run a political campaign on the biggest issue of our time. Pitiful. Deluded. But it is all over now. We Leavers have a solid mandate for the Withdrawal Agreement and (wait for it) to Get Brexit Done.

It isn't my ideal deal, far from it. But it honours the Referendum and preserves democracy.

There will be lots of moaning and whinging from Remainers over the Trade Deal we negotiate, but the major question, Leave or Remain, is now decided.

So I have a question for you guys, was it worth it? Wouldn't the country be a better, more unified, healthier place if you had done what is the bare minimum of losers in a democracy, and accepted you lost?
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BlueIndigoViolet
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The fight continues

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generallee
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(Original post by BlueIndigoViolet)
The fight continues

I am struggling to see the relevance of this, old son.

Do you have a substantive comment to make on any of the points in my original post? Do you accept that Remain has lost, or not?

And why have you posted a video of the (in effect) Socialist National Anthem, when a Party which espoused those values has just been taken out the back into the yard, given a roubst kicking in the head, (BY ITS OWN WORKING CLASS VOTERS) before being shot up the ar se??
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by generallee)
I am struggling to see the relevance of this, old son.

Do you have a substantive comment to make on any of the points in my original post? Do you accept that Remain has lost, or not?

And why have you posted a video of the (in effect) Socialist National Anthem, when a Party which espoused those values has just been taken out the back into the yard, given a roubst kicking in the head, (BY ITS OWN WORKING CLASS VOTERS) before being shot up the ar se??
what do you mean? We won
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by generallee)
...Remainers.
Guilty.

(Original post by generallee)
That is the big takeaway from this election. It was in effect a second referendum on Brexit.
Agreed.

(Original post by generallee)
The Tories (thank to Farage) united the Leave Vote, Remain as always were divided.
There has always been disagreement on what leave means. With the Conservative majority, it's a moot point though, as it now means whatever Boris wants. That's dangerous.

(Original post by generallee)
And of course had the worst Labour Leader since George Lansbury, perhaps ever at the helm. That was a huge help, thanks Jeremy.
Agreed. He is utterly useless.

(Original post by generallee)
Remainers have been outwitted by Leave at every turn.
It remains to be seen if leave voters will regret their decision. IMO, the leave campaign have outwitted their supporters.

(Original post by generallee)
We Leavers have a solid mandate for the Withdrawal Agreement and (wait for it) to Get Brexit Done.
And then disolve the Union. Upsetting.

(Original post by generallee)
There will be lots of moaning and whinging from Remainersbusiness over the Trade Deal we negotiate
Fixed it for you.

(Original post by generallee)
So I have a question for you guys, was it worth it? Wouldn't the country be a better, more unified, healthier place if you had done what is the bare minimum of losers in a democracy, and accepted you lost?
I accept that the United Kingdom has lost (its mind).

As you should be aware, this vote was required because the referendum question was vague and Parliament could not decide which leave option to choose. It was an issue with the original question being vague.

Brexit is a multi-year process, started on a narrow result. It was entirely appropriate to have a further vote, which is now settled.
Last edited by RogerOxon; 1 month ago
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generallee
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Guilty.


Agreed.


There has always been disagreement on what leave means. With the Conservative majority, it's a moot point though, as it now means whatever Boris wants. That's dangerous.


Agreed. He is utterly useless.


It remains to be seen if leave voters will regret their decision. IMO, the leave campaign have outwitted their supporters.


And then disolve the Union. Upsetting.


Fixed it for you.


I accept that the United Kingdom has lost (its mind).

As you should be aware, this vote was required because the referendum question was vague and Parliament could not decide which leave option to choose. It was an issue with the original question being vague.

Brexit is a multi-year process, started on a narrow result. It was entirely appropriate to have a further vote, which is now settled.
Northern Ireland is going to leave the UK within a few years, and join a United Ireland. That was inevitable, because of demography, but this Brexit deal will probably speed it up. I have no problem with that whatsover, you can't stop history.

Scotland might or nor leave. I have my doubts, but we will see. But if you think that a minority Corbyn government reliant on Sturgeon would have better preserved the Union, I think you are mistaken. Once again we are in the grip of huge, historical forces, and to blame it all on Brexit is shallow. Brexit isn't just the cause of something it is the result of it too.

And with that thought in mind I would suggest that Leave Campaign hasn't outwitted its supporters, but channelled their desire. As Dominic Cummings put it, quoting Bismarck

"Fert unda nec regitur"
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by generallee)
Northern Ireland is going to leave the UK within a few years, and join a United Ireland. That was inevitable, because of demography, but this Brexit deal will probably speed it up.
We effectively had both a united Ireland and a United Kingdom in the EU. That was ideal, IMO.

The NI / Ireland issues that Brexit has / will cause are of such a magnitude that I cannot imagine how an individula could justify voting for it. I was hoping that Leave supporters would have seen that.

(Original post by generallee)
Scotland might or nor leave.
The UK looks likely to either break-up or to have major issues.

(Original post by generallee)
But if you think that a minority Corbyn government reliant on Sturgeon would have better preserved the Union, I think you are mistaken.
No, I think that Labour had disastrous policies and that Corbyn is utterly incompetent. Frankly, none of the parties were good options for my vote. I'm firmly for remaining in the EU, which puts me in the minority. I'm just glad that I don't live in the UK, although it's bad enough watching this car crash from a distance.

(Original post by generallee)
Brexit isn't just the cause of something it is the result of it too.
Agreed. IMO, it's the result of some nasty opinions, e.g. racism, and delusions about how important the UK is in the World.

(Original post by generallee)
And with that thought in mind I would suggest that Leave Campaign hasn't outwitted its supporters, but channelled their desire.
We'll have to agree to differ on that.
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generallee
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(Original post by RogerOxon)

This vote was required because the referendum question was vague and Parliament could not decide which leave option to choose. It was an issue with the original question being vague.

Brexit is a multi-year process, started on a narrow result. It was entirely appropriate to have a further vote, which is now settled.
That is to be disingenuous.

Sure the Referendum Question wasn't definitive as to the detail of "Leave." So political debate on that, and a further vote on precise Leave terms, was quite reasonable.

But the Remain side (by which I mean most of the Tory Party, Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the Greens and Plaid) used that ambiguity to try and overturn the result. To Remain, not Leave. The clue was in the name! Talk about a Freudian slip.

A second Referendum was never intended to do anything but split the Leave vote so as to overturn it. The dishonesty here, and the playing of all of us for fools was yet another way in which you Remainers cocked it all up. And therefore lost.
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adam271
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The problem was that the politicians blocking brexit at every turn could not see how their actions were being viewed by the average person.

Yes the vote is pretty much 50/50 and if we had another vote remain may win by a very fine margin.
But the thing is the majority who voted remain respected the result of the 1st referendum and wanted it to just be done.

We could of had a super soft brexit if only the likes of the Lib Dems and labour campaigned for a super soft brexit.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by generallee)
That is to be disingenuous.

Sure the Referendum Question wasn't definitive as to the detail of "Leave." So political debate on that, and a further vote on precise Leave terms, was quite reasonable.

But the Remain side (by which I mean most of the Tory Party, Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the Greens and Plaid) used that ambiguity to try and overturn the result. To Remain, not Leave. The clue was in the name! Talk about a Freudian slip.

A second Referendum was never intended to do anything but split the Leave vote so as to overturn it. The dishonesty here, and the playing of all of us for fools was yet another way in which you Remainers cocked it all up. And therefore lost.
Yes, the Remain side wanted a remain option on a further referendum. That doesn't seem unreasonable, given the time elapsed, and further information available, since the first one.

As for "dishonesty here, and the playing of all of us for fools", that's the Leave campaign.

Anyway, it's done now. You will have to live, or die, with the consequences.
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ryandavis97
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Yeah the commies can get stuffed. Thank god they’re done with.
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generallee
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Yes, the Remain side wanted a remain option on a further referendum. That doesn't seem unreasonable, given the time elapsed, and further information available, since the first one.

As for "dishonesty here, and the playing of all of us for fools", that's the Leave campaign.

Anyway, it's done now. You will have to live, or die, with the consequences.
Overturning the largest political mandate in political history was not only unreasonable, it would have been terminal to democracy itself. Thank God we don't have to live with those consequences!

As for the future I am looking forward to it. We are the masters now and it is time to settle a few old scores. If I were Boris, and obviously I am not I wouldn't be in the mood for forgiveness towards you guys. All the prominent Remainer politicians, Grieve, Soubry, Umuna, Rudd have all been electorally humiliated and dealt with. Ken Clarke and Heseltine were always yesterday's men to us, now the whole country knows that. But the BBC and Channel 4 News need to be cut down to size, as does the House of Lords and Supreme Court.

Maybe he will be magnanimous.

(Oh, and that complete and utter tosser Bercow might be waiting a long time for his peerage!)
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by generallee)
That is the big takeaway from this election. It was in effect a second referendum on Brexit.
Except it wasn't; it was an election. People didn't vote for a party purely because of their position on Brexit. For example, some remain voters voted for the Conservatives, some leave voters voted for Labour. Hell, some leave voters voted for the Lib Dems.

It would not be fair to treat the election as a referendum since it encompasses far more than just our membership of the EU. A second referendum would be exactly as it says on the tin: a referendum.
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barnetlad
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The 'Peoples Government' is another example of a misleading political slogan. It misses the word 'rich' beforehand.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Except it wasn't; it was an election. People didn't vote for a party purely because of their position on Brexit. For example, some remain voters voted for the Conservatives, some leave voters voted for Labour. Hell, some leave voters voted for the Lib Dems.

It would not be fair to treat the election as a referendum since it encompasses far more than just our membership of the EU. A second referendum would be exactly as it says on the tin: a referendum.
I agree your point that this was an election but the justification for a second Referendum has gone.

In this country we decide important political questions by elections.

The problem was that in the 2017 election and later during 2018 and 2019 many politicians were regarding themselves as constrained by the 2016 Referendum result so that a general election could not revisit the Referendum result. Frankly Boris’ Deal and the 2019 election freed that up.

The Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dem and Brexit parties all presented different positions on Brexit and as important each party presented united internal positions.

The result might not have been clear; but in the event it was clear and with the exception of Scotland, where there is a different question, there is a roadmap forward.

I accept that there is almost certainly a Remainer majority in the country but the country wants Boris and the Tories to be the Government and they want to Leave. To force them into Remaining would compound Cameron’s mistake in 2016.

Realistically, Boris will have to concede Indyref2 if the SNP do not lose ground in the next Holyrood elections. If he doesn’t, his Government will be consumed by the Constitutional struggle.
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999tigger
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Guilty.


Agreed.


There has always been disagreement on what leave means. With the Conservative majority, it's a moot point though, as it now means whatever Boris wants. That's dangerous.


Agreed. He is utterly useless.


It remains to be seen if leave voters will regret their decision. IMO, the leave campaign have outwitted their supporters.


And then disolve the Union. Upsetting.


Fixed it for you.


I accept that the United Kingdom has lost (its mind).

As you should be aware, this vote was required because the referendum question was vague and Parliament could not decide which leave option to choose. It was an issue with the original question being vague.

Brexit is a multi-year process, started on a narrow result. It was entirely appropriate to have a further vote, which is now settled.
How dare you break it down into its component parts for the simpleton.
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Gwil
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If this had been a referendum, Remain would have won. The Remain-supporting parties received substantially more votes than the Brexit-supporting ones put together. Our broken electoral system is stifling the voices of millions of people.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Gwil)
If this had been a referendum, Remain would have won. The Remain-supporting parties received substantially more votes than the Brexit-supporting ones put together. Our broken electoral system is stifling the voices of millions of people.
I’m sorry, the British public rather like this electoral system.
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Gwil
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
I’m sorry, the British public rather like this electoral system.
Do you have any data to support that, or is it just a guess?

And however popular it may be, the fact remains that our system fails to function democratically: certain citizens' votes, depending on where they live, make a difference while other people's don't. A democratic country should not have a Parliament massively dominated by a certain party when only 43.6% of the population voted for that party. The majority of British voters are going to be denied fair representation in Parliament over the next five years.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by Gwil)
Do you have any data to support that, or is it just a guess?

And however popular it may be, the fact remains that our system fails to function democratically: certain citizens' votes, depending on where they live, make a difference while other people's don't. A democratic country should not have a Parliament massively dominated by a certain party when only 43.6% of the population voted for that party. The majority of British voters are going to be denied fair representation in Parliament over the next five years.
Yes. I have the 2011 Referendum.

And before you say AV isn’t true PR, only the BNP argued for a No vote because they wanted a different change. All other proponents of change argued for Yes even if they would have preferred a different system.
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