Opinions on Tony Blair's Speech today: Antisemitism, Brexit, Corbynism & Thatcherism Watch

londonmyst
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#41
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(Original post by Vinny C)
Not seen any mods for years... do they still ride pansy barrows?
I encountered one last month at a care home, he rides on a stairlift and mobility scooter.
The last few decades haven't calmed his foul mouth nor restrained his criminal tendencies.
Just as vile now as he probably was then.
My father's best friend always had evil neighbours.
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Vinny C
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#42
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(Original post by londonmyst)
I encountered one last month at a care home, he rides on a stairlift and mobility scooter.
The last few decades haven't calmed his foul mouth nor restrained his criminal tendencies.
Just as vile now as he probably was then.
My father's best friend always had evil neighbours.
Now, now... I may be a rocker but I don't see mods as evil. Btw... add me to your followed list, I'm one short of a score.
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londonmyst
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#43
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(Original post by Vinny C)
Now, now... I may be a rocker but I don't see mods as evil. Btw... add me to your followed list, I'm one short of a score.
You're hardly off your rocker.... yet.
Do you think that teddy boys are cute and cuddly?
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DJKL
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(Original post by Vinny C)
Well... the crime of blowing Thatcher's amassed govt fortune on the Gulf wars... yes. Trillions! Put the nation in hock for years... commonly called austerity.
Must have missed the Conservative governments 1979 to 1997 running budget surpluses year on year, perhaps you could point to which years? (clue, there was, I think from memory,only one year in the eighteen years)
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Vinny C
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(Original post by DJKL)
Must have missed the Conservative governments 1979 to 1997 running budget surpluses year on year, perhaps you could point to which years? (clue, there was, I think from memory,only one year in the eighteen years)
Clue... the Gulf wars. The Blair golden years to recession in under half the lifetime of my cat.
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Vinny C
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(Original post by londonmyst)
You're hardly off your rocker.... yet.
Do you think that teddy boys are cute and cuddly?
They have style... and once, I rode my motorbike into a brook, oops! At least a soft, muddy landing but a passing Ted in all his finery helped me drag it back out, bless.
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generallee
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An interesting speech.

In his analysis of Corbynism he is correct. If Labour doesn't completely reject it, there will never be a Labour government again.

I also agreed with his view (which I think he got from Roy Jenkins) that the split in the anti Tory side, between Liberals and Labour has allowed the Tories too much of a free ride for pretty much a whole century.

But there was a lot missing. First, no recognition of his own part in where we are now. He says that the left's attack on him as a metropolitan elitist is a caricature. But it resonated because it has truth.

Second, he realises that Brexit is a total rejection of everything he stood for. How could he not. But he doesn't accept, can't I suppose, that his government caused it. By failing working class voters and above all by the insane decision to accept free movement from the accession countries without a delay. All the other major EU countries sensibly put in controls, the UK didn't, so hey presto, more than a million low paid workers arrive in a few years.

That was the biggest single cause of working class disillusionment with the EU and the root cause of Brexit.

Third he doesn't offer any vision for what a non Socialist. progressive party should offer. His Europhile, globalist vision is in tatters. What is there to put in its place? And answer came there none.

So in conclusion. Yesterday's man. He analyses the past well enough, but offers nothing to take into the future.
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DerivativeName
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#48
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(Original post by londonmyst)
Do you think any remnants of a trail exist?
For any of the military interventions that involved uk armed forces during the Blair era.
Damn autocorrect.
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DSilva
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#49
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#49
(Original post by generallee)
An interesting speech.

In his analysis of Corbynism he is correct. If Labour doesn't completely reject it, there will never be a Labour government again.

I also agreed with his view (which I think he got from Roy Jenkins) that the split in the anti Tory side, between Liberals and Labour has allowed the Tories too much of a free ride for pretty much a whole century.

But there was a lot missing. First, no recognition of his own part in where we are now. He says that the left's attack on him as a metropolitan elitist is a caricature. But it resonated because it has truth.

Second, he realises that Brexit is a total rejection of everything he stood for. How could he not. But he doesn't accept, can't I suppose, that his government caused it. By failing working class voters and above all by the insane decision to accept free movement from the accession countries without a delay. All the other major EU countries sensibly put in controls, the UK didn't, so hey presto, more than a million low paid workers arrive in a few years.

That was the biggest single cause of working class disillusionment with the EU and the root cause of Brexit.

Third he doesn't offer any vision for what a non Socialist. progressive party should offer. His Europhile, globalist vision is in tatters. What is there to put in its place? And answer came there none.

So in conclusion. Yesterday's man. He analyses the past well enough, but offers nothing to take into the future.
Blair was probably the most gifted political communicator in the UK over the past few decades. Although his ideology marked a shift from that of the Labour party before him, what most attracted people to him (imo) was his competence, charisma and sense of authority.

Even now when he speaks he comes across as far more articulate and speaks with more conviction and more of a vision than any current politician in any party - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77650D7uRaw. Don't get me wrong, he made mistakes and I disagree with him on lots. But if the remain campaign would have been led by a peak Blair, the result may well have been different.

Putting aside Brexit, I still think his prescription holds true. Elections are won (by the left) by seizing the centre ground.

This quote from 2006 is still rather powerful, perhaps more now than ever:

"They say I hate the party, and its traditions. I don't. I love this party. There's only one tradition I hated: losing."
Last edited by DSilva; 1 month ago
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generallee
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(Original post by DSilva)
Blair was probably the most gifted political communicator in the UK over the past few decades. Although his ideology marked a shift from that of the Labour party before him, what most attracted people to him (imo) was his competence, charisma and sense of authority.

Even now when he speaks he comes across as far more articulate and speaks with more conviction and more of a vision than any current politician in any party - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77650D7uRaw. Don't get me wrong, he made mistakes and I disagree with him on lots. But if the remain campaign would have been led by a peak Blair, the result may well have been different.

Putting aside Brexit, I still think his prescription holds true. Elections are won (by the left) by seizing the centre ground.

This quote from 2006 is still rather powerful, perhaps more now than ever:

"They say I hate the party, and its traditions. I don't. I love this party. There's only one tradition I hated: losing."
He was a gifted communicator, no doubt about that. But people saw through him at the end. And that was why he was actually a drag on the Remain side, not a net benefit. Whenever he opened his mouth Brexiteers found more reasons to Leave, or the waverers left Remain.

The knock on him, apart from creating the conditions for Brexit (if like all Remainers you think that is the most catastrophic policy mistake since the second world war, that is hardly to his reputational credit, Brexiteers thank him, obviously) is that he actually did very little. What did he achieve? Surprisingly little, considering he had such a long time in office, with stonking majorities and by our standards limitless power. It was a huge opportunity wasted, if you are a Progressive.

The Supreme Court and the Human Rights Act are his biggest legacies I suppose. And even they might face serious revision by Boris, although we will see about that.

He didn't leave the country better than he found it. He left it worse.
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DSilva
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#51
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(Original post by generallee)
He was a gifted communicator, no doubt about that. But people saw through him at the end. And that was why he was actually a drag on the Remain side, not a net benefit. Whenever he opened his mouth Brexiteers found more reasons to Leave, or the waverers left Remain.

The knock on him, apart from creating the conditions for Brexit (if like all Remainers you think that is the most catastrophic policy mistake since the second world war, that is hardly to his reputational credit, Brexiteers thank him, obviously) is that he actually did very little. What did he achieve? Surprisingly little, considering he had such a long time in office, with stonking majorities and by our standards limitless power. It was a huge opportunity wasted, if you are a Progressive.

The Supreme Court and the Human Rights Act are his biggest legacies I suppose. And even they might face serious revision by Boris, although we will see about that.

He didn't leave the country better than he found it. He left it worse.
What do you think Labour need to do to win again?
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ajj2000
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#52
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(Original post by londonmyst)
Yes.
Labour didn't do too much better during the Kinnock leadership era, even when the Conservatives ousted Mrs Thatcher.
Labour did way better under Kinnock - particularly in his second general election when he was pretty close to winning and left Major with a smallish majority which was hard to lead.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by DSilva)
What do you think Labour need to do to win again?
I think Labour needs to be a clear and effective left leaning and not a small ‘c’ Tory party.
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generallee
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(Original post by DSilva)
What do you think Labour need to do to win again?
They need to rebuild a national coalition that includes both middle class progressives, and the working class.

Blair did that, basically by saying the working class didn't have anywhere else to go. They do now, First they went to UKIP, then the Brexit Party, finally the whole hog and Tory. So that method won't work any more.

To win back Bolosver and Blyth they have to lose the obsession with white privilege, colonialism as oppression, trans gender toilets, pussy footing around Islamist terrorists in ISIS camps, ya de ya. It is radioactive with those voters. They HATE that stuff.

The left in Sweden is tacking to the right on identity politics and it working to an extent.

But how can they do that when they are in the grip of middle class sjw's who are woke to the very core of their being? I think the party is in existential crisis I really do. And this is true for parties of the left across Europe now they have become riddled with performative wokedom.
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DSilva
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(Original post by generallee)
They need to rebuild a national coalition that includes both middle class progressives, and the working class.

Blair did that, basically by saying the working class didn't have anywhere else to go. They do now, First they went to UKIP, then the Brexit Party, finally the whole hog and Tory. So that method won't work any more.

To win back Bolosver and Blyth they have to lose the obsession with white privilege, colonialism as oppression, trans gender toilets, pussy footing around Islamist terrorists in ISIS camps, ya de ya. It is radioactive with those voters. They HATE that stuff.

The left in Sweden is tacking to the right on identity politics and it working to an extent.

But how can they do that when they are in the grip of middle class sjw's who are woke to the very core of their being? I think the party is in existential crisis I really do. And this is true for parties of the left across Europe now they have become riddled with performative wokedom.
As you say the key difference is that in 1997 Labour were a working class party trying to win over the middle class. Now they are middle class party that needs to win over the working class.

I agree with you on wokeness, and it's a point I too have made over the years. Even though I'm a Liberal remainer! Identity politics is toxic and more than that its morally questionable. Rather than focusing on woke issues, Labour should be focusing on issues that do matter to people like childcare, social care, housing and law and order. This country needs a viable centre left party.

I would also say that despite often disagreeing with you, I do find you to be very insightful and interesting to converse with. Despite me being a Liberal remoaner and you an ardent brexiteer, I suspect there are a lot of areas we would find common ground on. But I guess that's the nature of politics today. Everything is so tribal and people who may otherwise find common ground end up polarised against each other.
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generallee
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(Original post by DSilva)
As you say the key difference is that in 1997 Labour were a working class party trying to win over the middle class. Now they are middle class party that needs to win over the working class.

I agree with you on wokeness, and it's a point I too have made over the years. Even though I'm a Liberal remainer! Identity politics is toxic and more than that its morally questionable. Rather than focusing on woke issues, Labour should be focusing on issues that do matter to people like childcare, social care, housing and law and order. This country needs a viable centre left party.

I would also say that despite often disagreeing with you, I do find you to be very insightful and interesting to converse with. Despite me being a Liberal remoaner and you an ardent brexiteer, I suspect there are a lot of areas we would find common ground on. But I guess that's the nature of politics today. Everything is so tribal and people who may otherwise find common ground end up polarised against each other.
That is very kind of you. I enjoy conversing with you also.

But we are very polarised as a nation. Some acquaintances (I won't call them friends) have actually cut all contact with me as a result of all this. They blame me personally for what they view as a national calamity it would seem.

That is deeply sad. We should all be allowed our political views (if they are not unashamedly totalitarian). Maybe they will resume contact now it is effectively decided and the heat is leaving the issue? Up to them.
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DSilva
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(Original post by generallee)
That is very kind of you. I enjoy conversing with you also.

But we are very polarised as a nation. Some acquaintances (I won't call them friends) have actually cut all contact with me as a result of all this. They blame me personally for what they view as a national calamity it would seem.

That is deeply sad. We should all be allowed our political views (if they are not unashamedly totalitarian). Maybe they will resume contact now it is effectively decided and the heat is leaving the issue? Up to them.
I think we're all responsible for it though. Right, left or centre, none of us seem to be able to discuss politics civilly anymore. I'm not exempting myself from that.

I wonder what led to it all really. In the 90s and 2000s we seemed to be able to disagree with each other constructively. Not so much anymore.

My worry re Johnson/Cummings is not so much pushing back on wokedom (I would support that to an extent). My worry is thst they start to decide policy solely on whether it makes liberals cry. It's happening in America, where Republicans support dumping in rivers and weakening air pollution controls because it upsets liberals etc. The actual impact of policies becomes merely an afterthought in attempts to get one over our political opponents.
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Smack
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Something that should worry Labour is voter breakdown by age. They did well amongst the youngest group, but suffered a steady decline as the groups got older. Do some interpolation and it's possible that once you're around 30/31 you probably don't vote Labour. They are now essentially the kiddies party. They didn't seem to go down very well with those who wouldn't experienced the nationalised industries of the 1970's.

This electoral wipe-out was what we were expecting the last time. It didn't happen then, for various reasons, but it happened this time and Labour have to accept the reality that if they want to go back to being a credible contender for government, they'll need to change their positions inline with where more of the British pubic are. I reckon Labour were fortunate this time with the Lib Dems being severely weakened since 2010, otherwise it would've likely been worse.
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londonmyst
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#59
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#59
(Original post by DSilva)
Blair was probably the most gifted political communicator in the UK over the past few decades. Although his ideology marked a shift from that of the Labour party before him, what most attracted people to him (imo) was his competence, charisma and sense of authority.

Even now when he speaks he comes across as far more articulate and speaks with more conviction and more of a vision than any current politician in any party - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77650D7uRaw. Don't get me wrong, he made mistakes and I disagree with him on lots. But if the remain campaign would have been led by a peak Blair, the result may well have been different.

Putting aside Brexit, I still think his prescription holds true. Elections are won (by the left) by seizing the centre ground.

This quote from 2006 is still rather powerful, perhaps more now than ever:

"They say I hate the party, and its traditions. I don't. I love this party. There's only one tradition I hated: losing."
I agree.
Doubt David Cameron would have won any general elections while Tony Blair was Labour leader.
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generallee
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(Original post by DSilva)
I think we're all responsible for it though. Right, left or centre, none of us seem to be able to discuss politics civilly anymore. I'm not exempting myself from that.

I wonder what led to it all really. In the 90s and 2000s we seemed to be able to disagree with each other constructively. Not so much anymore.

My worry re Johnson/Cummings is not so much pushing back on wokedom (I would support that to an extent). My worry is thst they start to decide policy solely on whether it makes liberals cry. It's happening in America, where Republicans support dumping in rivers and weakening air pollution controls because it upsets liberals etc. The actual impact of policies becomes merely an afterthought in attempts to get one over our political opponents.

Being a Jewish Labour voter, I can't even really discuss politics with much of my family or friends. The debate has just become toxic.
I don't know about Boris, he strikes me as pragmatic (and actually pretty liberal) but Cummings will definitely push for policies that will make liberals cry. Or rather completely enrage them.
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