What was so bad about Corbyn? Watch

999tigger
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#21
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#21
(Original post by QE2)
All those points are merely opinions or misrepresentations - predominantly voiced by the RW media. To some people, some of those points are positives rather than negatives.
If you really want, we can go through them in detail.
Well why not just respond in a similar manner instead of blaming it all on the media?
I can look past the media and cant see the controversy in identifying those as weaknesses in him being the leader, the way he led, ran the labour party and the policies he chose to run on. As much as the media might try many of those were about Corbyn.

Feel free to go through them.

Boris is hardly a shining knight though. Man y p[eople chose on who was least worst.
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999tigger
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#22
(Original post by QE2)
As I said, many people sucked up the right-wing propaganda.
That isnt an explanation.
I believe this is where you point out why none of the above were true as you said you would do.
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Bang Outta Order
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(Original post by Cheesybread)
He was seen as too extreme on the left wing, and due to the median voter theorem, the tories swooped in and gained most of the votes in the middle. This also combined with not taking a definitive stance on Brexit, led to people steering away from him.
The fact that you know this, and he doesn't...

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Bang Outta Order
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Despite how much noise they make, I know lefties aren't even upset..since

Lefties are right wingers in disguise.
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QE2
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#25
(Original post by 999tigger)
That isnt an explanation.
I believe this is where you point out why none of the above were true as you said you would do.
I didn't say they "were not true", I said they were "opinion and misrepresentation".

1. Too extreme and left wing.
Subjective opinion and misrepresentation. There was nothing "extreme" about his policies and he may have been more left wing that Blair and Miliband, but he still supported a generally capitalist economy.

2. Too willing to impose taxes and get the country into more debt.
Imposing more tax reduces debt. Increased spending on public services usually requires extra borrowing. The Tories massively increased the national debt over their 9 years, and will continue to grow it, but most media and commentators "forgot" to mention that.

3. Outdated dinosaur on economics.
Subjective opinion. What even is that?

4. Too willing to nationalise.
Subjective opinion. Nationalising certain key public services is essential. Notice that no one complains about the NHS or police or fire services being nationalised. Why should water, power and national public transport be any different? They are essential services that every one relies on.

5. Weak leader in dealing with issues, and running his own party. Bullying, Anti semitism
clkaims etc.
Subjective opinion. You could argue that he was strong for not caving in to demands that Labour accept that criticism of Israeli policy is anti-semitism.

6. Weak on defence, no respect for armed forces or sticking up for the UK when tough defence decisions need to be made.
Subjective opinion and unsupported assertion. In what way does he have "no respect for armed forces"? When did he "not stick up for the UK"?

7. Dubious past acquaintances
His position on Irish reunification during the 80s and 90s may have been ill-judged on occasion, but it was dialogue and negotiation that ended the troubles, not military force and posturing. And at least he was open about it. The Government and security forces were doing the same thing but in secret, and not only negotiating direct with terrorists, but also facilitating their operation.

Also, some of the accusations in the RW media were simply lies.
Hamas and Hezbollah are also guilty of unjustified violence, but when you are promoting the rights of the Palestinians, you can't really refuse to talk to the Palestinians elected representatives.
This issue shows that he is a man of principle rather than a political opportunist. He conducted talks with these people because he saw it as the right thing to do in the context of promoting peace. A positive rather than a negative.
Modern history has shown us that in such situations it is dialogue and diplomacy that achieves peace, yet he is vilified for doing this and leaders who would simply cause more death and suffering are praised. You couldn't make it up!
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QE2
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#26
(Original post by Bang Outta Order)
The fact that you know this, and he doesn't...

The problem is, when you are a man of principle rather than an opportunist chancer, you can't change what you believe simply in order to be popular with idiots.
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QE2
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(Original post by Bang Outta Order)
Despite how much noise they make, I know lefties aren't even upset..since

Lefties are right wingers in disguise.
If you mean that ideologues are essentially the same, regardless of the details of the ideology, then I would agree.
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barnetlad
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#28
His inability to deal with those in the party who have made anti Semitic comments and the non-position over Brexit are enough for me.
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deathbySTEP
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For me, this is the big one: lack of clarity on Brexit which alienated a good deal of his voters and make him look like a weak leader
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QE2
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#30
(Original post by deathbyfm)
For me, this is the big one: lack of clarity on Brexit which alienated a good deal of his voters and make him look like a weak leader
I don't see why.
His position was absolutely clear. Negotiate the best deal possible then put it to a 2nd referendum against Remain. Not only clear, but reasonable.
That position would not have made Remainers leave for other parties, and campaigning for unilaterally cancelling Brexit would not have persuaded any convinced Leavers to vote Labour.

Again, this issue is just a misrepresentation by the media and people seem to have uncritically accepted it.

"Strong Leader" does not mean doing something stupid just because it is easy or popular. A strong leader does the right thing, even if it is difficult or unpopular.
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Bang Outta Order
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#31
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#31
(Original post by QE2)
If you mean that ideologues are essentially the same, regardless of the details of the ideology, then I would agree.
No. That's not what I meant. I suppose I mean to say liberals rather than lefties. As you can be liberal but not left wing. And conservative but not right wing. And millions of people in democratic countries think that liberals are full of **** and have ulterior motives or are just disastrously unrealistic and self righteous. And don't really care about progress at all, but are divisive with ironically intolerant propaganda mongering devoid of morality. And also that many liberals can literally afford to be this way because they are not working class. So in the end. They couldn't give a toss what happens in the world.
Last edited by Bang Outta Order; 1 month ago
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Bang Outta Order
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#32
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#32
(Original post by QE2)
The problem is, when you are a man of principle rather than an opportunist chancer, you can't change what you believe simply in order to be popular with idiots.
principle?! lmao explain his principles..
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999tigger
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#33
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#33
(Original post by QE2)
I didn't say they "were not true", I said they were "opinion and misrepresentation".


Subjective opinion and misrepresentation. There was nothing "extreme" about his policies and he may have been more left wing that Blair and Miliband, but he still supported a generally capitalist economy.


Imposing more tax reduces debt. Increased spending on public services usually requires extra borrowing. The Tories massively increased the national debt over their 9 years, and will continue to grow it, but most media and commentators "forgot" to mention that.


Subjective opinion. What even is that?


Subjective opinion. Nationalising certain key public services is essential. Notice that no one complains about the NHS or police or fire services being nationalised. Why should water, power and national public transport be any different? They are essential services that every one relies on.


Subjective opinion. You could argue that he was strong for not caving in to demands that Labour accept that criticism of Israeli policy is anti-semitism.


Subjective opinion and unsupported assertion. In what way does he have "no respect for armed forces"? When did he "not stick up for the UK"?


His position on Irish reunification during the 80s and 90s may have been ill-judged on occasion, but it was dialogue and negotiation that ended the troubles, not military force and posturing. And at least he was open about it. The Government and security forces were doing the same thing but in secret, and not only negotiating direct with terrorists, but also facilitating their operation.

Also, some of the accusations in the RW media were simply lies.
Hamas and Hezbollah are also guilty of unjustified violence, but when you are promoting the rights of the Palestinians, you can't really refuse to talk to the Palestinians elected representatives.
This issue shows that he is a man of principle rather than a political opportunist. He conducted talks with these people because he saw it as the right thing to do in the context of promoting peace. A positive rather than a negative.
Modern history has shown us that in such situations it is dialogue and diplomacy that achieves peace, yet he is vilified for doing this and leaders who would simply cause more death and suffering are praised. You couldn't make it up!
I will go through it later today or tomorrow.

I forgot to add poor unsatisfactory position on Brexit which antagonised many traditional labour voters who wanted to leave. conduct of blocking brexit annoyed and ambiguous election stance on his brexit solution.
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the bear
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#34
He was desperate to implement the Will of the People.... just not the British People

https://cdn-stream.httpid.com/c202/w...iet-Poster.png
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QE2
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#35
(Original post by Bang Outta Order)
No. That's not what I meant. I suppose I mean to say liberals rather than lefties. As you can be liberal but not left wing. And conservative but not right wing. And millions of people in democratic countries think that liberals are full of **** and have ulterior motives or are just disastrously unrealistic and self righteous. And don't really care about progress at all, but are divisive with ironically intolerant propaganda mongering devoid of morality. And also that many liberals can literally afford to be this way because they are not working class. So in the end. They couldn't give a toss what happens in the world.
No idea what you are on about then. :dontknow:
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QE2
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#36
(Original post by Bang Outta Order)
principle?! lmao explain his principles..
Socialism. Equality. Not pandering to the privileged elite. Not appealing to opportunist populism.
You know, all the things you and other criticise him for.
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QE2
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#37
(Original post by the bear)
He was desperate to implement the Will of the People.... just not the British People

https://cdn-stream.httpid.com/c202/w...iet-Poster.png
Vote Johnson. Get Johnson.
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Neurocandid
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#38
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#38
Reading the some of the left wing comments makes you even realise why even some of his voters didn’t vote for him
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the bear
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#39
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#39
(Original post by QE2)
Vote Johnson. Get Johnson.
thank goodness we did !! now we have at least 5, probably 10 or more, years of strong and stable government by pragmatic capitalists rather than deranged Soviet fanboys

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QE2
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#40
(Original post by the bear)
thank goodness we did !! now we have at least 5, probably 10 or more, years of strong and stable government by pragmatic capitalists rather than deranged Soviet fanboys

I know you're taking the piss, but there are people on here who will think you are serious. You don't want to get a reputation, do you?
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