M570 – Motion on selling Cardiff Airport Watch

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SnowMiku
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Why is it important that Cardiff has an international airport, it's not like Wales is some remote land which is otherwise completely inaccessible to the outside world, it's only about 10 miles away from the civilised lands of England where sheep don't have to fear they're about to be molested.
I think what Thomp0 is trying to get at is that Cardiff is the biggest city of Wales which is, in itself, it's own country within the UK and the only one (city in Wales) with a population to merit an airport. It should be able to stand up by itself without having to rely on England.
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Jammy Duel
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#22
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#22
(Original post by SnowMiku)
I think what Thomp0 is trying to get at is that Cardiff is the biggest city of Wales which is, in itself, it's own country within the UK and the only one (city in Wales) with a population to merit an airport. It should be able to stand up by itself without having to rely on England.
What population merits an airport? The other regions are also perfectly capable of operating via the London airports or Manchester and certainly don't need their, for want of a better term, local airports, nationalised and the large cities in the South East manage just fine without having their own international airports, instead having to travel to one of the London airports.
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SnowMiku
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
What population merits an airport? The other regions are also perfectly capable of operating via the London airports or Manchester and certainly don't need their, for want of a better term, local airports, nationalised and the large cities in the South East manage just fine without having their own international airports, instead having to travel to one of the London airports.
London can only handle so much air traffic and is overstretched as is. Regional airports (like Cardiff) reduce the strain on them and public or not, are important.
Nationalised or not, we need them.
South East is v. close to London geographically so that's fair (not ideal though, not to mention for France (mainly Paris) etc they have Eurostar as a viable alternative) but for someone in Wales to use London, that'd be a 4+ hour journey.
(I'm aware railways exist for that purpose but they're not 100% reliable)
Also, before it's said that London can just expand, i'm not sure that's going to go down well with the environment.
edit: By London i'm referring to Heathrow mainly, but both Gatwick + Heathrow have the issues.
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Cabin19
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#24
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#24
The issue with Cardiff is it's rather remote and has to be one of the hardest places to get to via other modes of transport eg Rail or Car so does have alot of domestic business flights that if the airport was closed would lead to a economic loss for the region.
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The Mogg
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#25
(Original post by Cabin19)
The issue with Cardiff is it's rather remote and has to be one of the hardest places to get to via other modes of transport eg Rail or Car so does have alot of domestic business flights that if the airport was closed would lead to a economic loss for the region.
What's with this whole doom and gloom of privatisation as if it's guaranteed to bring the airport to its demise. Worst case scenario, the Welsh government could just buy it back if it was doing so badly in the private sector, Cardiff airport was in the private sector until 2013 when the Welsh government purchased it so it's not like it hasn't been done before. I remain confident that it will do just fine in the private sector, just as other airports do.
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SnowMiku
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Cabin19)
The issue with Cardiff is it's rather remote and has to be one of the hardest places to get to via other modes of transport eg Rail or Car so does have alot of domestic business flights that if the airport was closed would lead to a economic loss for the region.
To be fair, Cardiff Airport does have its own rail station (longest station name in the UK), so while it'd be a pain, it's not completely impossible.

Although, this is what could happen should the airport be transferred to private ownership and then it's new owners decide to sell if they also thought it unprofitable. Not saying they will, but potential.
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barnetlad
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#27
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#27
Nay, on the grounds it should be a matter for the devolved administration.
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Saracen's Fez
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#28
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#28
(Original post by SnowMiku)
I think what Thomp0 is trying to get at is that Cardiff is the biggest city of Wales which is, in itself, it's own country within the UK and the only one (city in Wales) with a population to merit an airport. It should be able to stand up by itself without having to rely on England.
Though I should point out, because I think it's relevant insofar as this motion is relevant, that it's not the only airport in Wales. There's a second airport in Wales on Anglesey, and the air link between them is an important part of the transport strategy for Wales.

(Original post by SnowMiku)
To be fair, Cardiff Airport does have its own rail station (longest station name in the UK), so while it'd be a pain, it's not completely impossible.
That will come as news to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrn drobwllllantysiliogogogoch!
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SnowMiku
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
Though I should point out, because I think it's relevant insofar as this motion is relevant, that it's not the only airport in Wales. There's a second airport in Wales on Anglesey, and the air link between them is an important part of the transport strategy for Wales.



That will come as news to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrn drobwllllantysiliogogogoch!
Yup, it's shortened to Llanfairpwll officially.
Cardiff airport - "Rhoose Cardiff International Airport"
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SnowMiku
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#30
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#30
(Original post by The Mogg)
What's with this whole doom and gloom of privatisation as if it's guaranteed to bring the airport to its demise. Worst case scenario, the Welsh government could just buy it back if it was doing so badly in the private sector, Cardiff airport was in the private sector until 2013 when the Welsh government purchased it so it's not like it hasn't been done before. I remain confident that it will do just fine in the private sector, just as other airports do.
But surely the whole buyback thing could just perpetuate the cycle of getting in debt (or borrowing money, whichever) b/c of said airport?

Not saying it's all doom and gloom, but it's good to be cautious>
Disclaimer: I don't know much about economics.
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Cabin19
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#31
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#31
(Original post by The Mogg)
What's with this whole doom and gloom of privatisation as if it's guaranteed to bring the airport to its demise. Worst case scenario, the Welsh government could just buy it back if it was doing so badly in the private sector, Cardiff airport was in the private sector until 2013 when the Welsh government purchased it so it's not like it hasn't been done before. I remain confident that it will do just fine in the private sector, just as other airports do.
The issue is thought any private business will operate as a boom or bust scenario as they know if it all goes wrong the government will bail them out and buy the airport back! So personally for the tax payer it's cheaper to keep the airport under public control.
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Rakas21
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#32
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#32
Aye

The state has no real place in owning a relatively provincial airport when other competitors exist.
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Jammy Duel
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Rakas21)
Aye

The state has no real place in owning a relatively provincial airport when other competitors exist.
It does, however, have a place operating as an investment when other competitors exist apparently
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Jammy Duel
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#34
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#34
(Original post by SnowMiku)
London can only handle so much air traffic and is overstretched as is. Regional airports (like Cardiff) reduce the strain on them and public or not, are important.
Nationalised or not, we need them.
South East is v. close to London geographically so that's fair (not ideal though, not to mention for France (mainly Paris) etc they have Eurostar as a viable alternative) but for someone in Wales to use London, that'd be a 4+ hour journey.
(I'm aware railways exist for that purpose but they're not 100% reliable)
Also, before it's said that London can just expand, i'm not sure that's going to go down well with the environment.
edit: By London i'm referring to Heathrow mainly, but both Gatwick + Heathrow have the issues.
Well Heathrow and Gatwick running near capacity is a case for expanded capacity in London, not a case for ensuring capacity 150 miles away, and capacity that is only about 1.3% of that of the London airports, Heathrow handles almost as many passengers in a week as Cardiff does in a year. Heathrow is heavily restricted when it comes to nighttime aircraft movements and yet if we doubled the allowed night movements Heathrow would have more passengers during restricted hours than Cardiff does all year. Extending Heathrow's normal operating hours by about 20 minutes would also increase the London capacity by as much as Cardiff's current usage.
Luton has 10 times the usage of Cardiff and its spare capacity is nearly the annual movements seen in Cardiff; Stansted has over 15 times as many passenger movements as Cardiff and claims to have significant spare capacity.
Hell, even London City Airport is three times as busy as Cardiff

The reality is also that Heathrow is expanding, increasing capacity by about 50%, in other words in a few decades the movements through heathrow alone will be equivalent to literally everybody in the UK going on holiday via Heathrow in both directions, Luton too plans on doubling capacity by 2050, and I honestly doubt it will be long until we start looking at a third runway at Gatwick so as to allow concurrent use of multiple runways

You also seem to be suggesting that a major route for Cardiff is to the London airports, simply not the case. None of the London airports are in the top 20 busiest routes, and you don't even need 20,000 people per year to make the top 20, and there's a simple reason: it's only 3 hours to drive/get the train
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Jammy Duel
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Cabin19)
The issue is thought any private business will operate as a boom or bust scenario as they know if it all goes wrong the government will bail them out and buy the airport back! So personally for the tax payer it's cheaper to keep the airport under public control.
A bailout cannot be assumed
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Jammy Duel
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Cabin19)
The issue with Cardiff is it's rather remote and has to be one of the hardest places to get to via other modes of transport eg Rail or Car so does have alot of domestic business flights that if the airport was closed would lead to a economic loss for the region.
Simply not true, it is neither remote nor would there appear to be that much business travel. When you look at the busiest routes you see locations like Amsterdam, Mallorca, Tenerife, Malaga, Faro, Lanzarote, Ibiza, BArcelona, Zakynthos, Milan, Burgas, Gran Canaria; Cardiff is overwhelmingly used for short holidays in Europe. The busiest domestic route is Edinburgh, then Belfast, then Glasgow i.e. to travel halfway across the country.

As for remoteness it sits on a mainline and the M4 services Cardiff, in other words if you leave London past Heathrow just follow the road for a few hours and you hit Cardiff, it is not difficult to get to at all, the only way it is difficult to get it is finding a reason to want to go there in the first place.
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Jammy Duel
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#37
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#37
(Original post by barnetlad)
Nay, on the grounds it should be a matter for the devolved administration.
So is same sex marriage in NI, you have no issue whatsoever with Westminster legislating there
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barnetlad
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
So is same sex marriage in NI, you have no issue whatsoever with Westminster legislating there
There is no devolved administration in NI currently.
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SoggyCabbages
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#39
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#39
(Original post by barnetlad)
There is no devolved administration in NI currently.
So in that case you should be criticsing the central Westminister government, as they are taking away the right of self-legislation. But of course you aren't because you pursue a postmodern liberal agenda and the legalisation of homo marriage is a good thing in your eyes. You'd soon be crying if something anti-Welsh happened if the Welsh devolved administration was not around.
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barnetlad
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#40
(Original post by SoggyCabbages)
So in that case you should be criticsing the central Westminister government, as they are taking away the right of self-legislation. But of course you aren't because you pursue a postmodern liberal agenda and the legalisation of homo marriage is a good thing in your eyes. You'd soon be crying if something anti-Welsh happened if the Welsh devolved administration was not around.
I have stood on a manifesto that includes more devolution for Wales.
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