B1543 – Mandatory Welsh (Abolition of) Act. Watch

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The Mogg
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#61
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#61
(Original post by barnetlad)
One of the ways to oppress people, deny them access to certain services, justice etc, is to oppress their language. Apartheid South Africa tried this in 1976 by insisting Afrikaans and English be the language of instruction in secondary school, not Xhosa or one of the other languages spoken by the majority communities.

We must not be doing something, even unintentionally, to oppress people who have lived in a place for millennia by making it more difficult to use their traditional language, when accessing public services. Welsh public services are bilingual and should remain so. For a country that has lost a large number of jobs with the closure of mines and other industry, we should not be restricting people to be able to access local jobs, which this Bill could do.
What I got from this is that it's oppressive to give people a choice in studying Welsh, but it's not oppressive to force them to do Welsh irregardless of whether they want to or not.
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LiberOfLondon
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#62
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#62
(Original post by barnetlad)
One of the ways to oppress people, deny them access to certain services, justice etc, is to oppress their language. Apartheid South Africa tried this in 1976 by insisting Afrikaans and English be the language of instruction in secondary school, not Xhosa or one of the other languages spoken by the majority communities.

We must not be doing something, even unintentionally, to oppress people who have lived in a place for millennia by making it more difficult to use their traditional language, when accessing public services. Welsh public services are bilingual and should remain so. For a country that has lost a large number of jobs with the closure of mines and other industry, we should not be restricting people to be able to access local jobs, which this Bill could do.
This Act does nothing to remove bilingualism in Wales and does nothing to remove Welsh-medium education. All it does is stipulate that people from an English-speaking household and whose mother language is English shouldn't be forced into learning Welsh simply to placate a few nationalists.

Your comparisons to apartheid are massively offensive and I would like it if you could withdraw them.
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Baron of Sealand
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
One of the defining features of the public sector is how few of them are well paid, which would suggest that either Fez is speaking crap or ther private sector stays well away from Wales
Perhaps Wales is very very poor
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Jammy Duel
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
Perhaps Wales is very very poor
That's undeniable, it's GDP per capita is about 10k below the UK at large, even more behind England because Wales, Scotland and NI drag down the average
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Saracen's Fez
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#65
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#65
Saw this on Twitter and thought of this debate...

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The Mogg
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
Big up Karen8725996.
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LiberOfLondon
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
Saw this on Twitter and thought of this debate...

Can't boil an egg?
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barnetlad
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#68
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#68
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
This Act does nothing to remove bilingualism in Wales and does nothing to remove Welsh-medium education. All it does is stipulate that people from an English-speaking household and whose mother language is English shouldn't be forced into learning Welsh simply to placate a few nationalists.

Your comparisons to apartheid are massively offensive and I would like it if you could withdraw them.
I am sorry that I referenced apartheid policies and am happy to withdraw them.
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Jammy Duel
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
Having been to school with most of the Welsh-speakers from English-speaking (and for that matter Welsh-speaking) homes from the north of the county, I know that that's really not the case.
By any chance is that because it was a school where most people had been forced to learn Welsh and were from English speaking homes? You seem to be failing to comprehend this idea that if you force somebody to learn a language it does not matter whether they would otherwise learn it they will learn it, they will then forget it after their education ends.

Almost everybody in the UK who can speak at least basic french at aged 15 is from an English speaking household, they also can't even speak basic French when 25. Meanwhile the actual French speaking households will teach themselves.

I am really not sure what's complicated about the idea that in the absence of compulsory Welsh education the people who will know Welsh until they die will still learn Welsh, if compulsory education were necessary for the fifth of Wales to learn Welsh it would be a dead language, and for that matter English would be too because almost nobody would have been taught English (and its precursor languages) until very recently, we would live in a world of mutes.
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Jammy Duel
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#70
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#70
(Original post by barnetlad)
One of the ways to oppress people, deny them access to certain services, justice etc, is to oppress their language.

We must not be doing something, even unintentionally, to oppress people who have lived in a place for millennia by making it more difficult to use their traditional language, when accessing public services. Welsh public services are bilingual and should remain so. For a country that has lost a large number of jobs with the closure of mines and other industry, we should not be restricting people to be able to access local jobs, which this Bill could do.
They aren't be "oppressed" though, it does not ban the speaking of Welsh, it does not prohibit the teaching of Welsh, it just removes Welsh as a compulsory subject. a fifth of the Welsh, those who actually care about the language, have managed to keep it alive for millenia without being taught it at schools (which didn't really exist for most of that time), they will continue to be able to teach their children Welsh, unless you're suggesting that those who care about Welsh are too thick to do that now?
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Saracen's Fez
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
By any chance is that because it was a school where most people had been forced to learn Welsh and were from English speaking homes? You seem to be failing to comprehend this idea that if you force somebody to learn a language it does not matter whether they would otherwise learn it they will learn it, they will then forget it after their education ends.

Almost everybody in the UK who can speak at least basic french at aged 15 is from an English speaking household, they also can't even speak basic French when 25. Meanwhile the actual French speaking households will teach themselves.

I am really not sure what's complicated about the idea that in the absence of compulsory Welsh education the people who will know Welsh until they die will still learn Welsh, if compulsory education were necessary for the fifth of Wales to learn Welsh it would be a dead language, and for that matter English would be too because almost nobody would have been taught English (and its precursor languages) until very recently, we would live in a world of mutes.
Well as it happens, most of the people who come from English-speaking homes and learnt Welsh via a Welsh-medium education (again, this means immersion and is not the same as compulsory second-language Welsh lessons) in roughly my peer group are now reaching or have reached the end of their education, and aren't a million miles away from the age of 25. Many still make regular use of Welsh, and I highly doubt many people, if anyone, has forgotten how to speak it to any meaningful (non-fluent) degree. That includes those people who have since moved to Australia, etc. Many will teach the language to their children in the home, and those who don't will likely educate their children through the medium of Welsh if that option is available to them. That sort of thing – plus the fact Welsh-medium education is growing as a proportion of the sector – is why speaker numbers are stable and increasing amongst the young. That's because immersion education isn't the same as your French lessons you had in school.

The situation with second-language Welsh is very similar to the one the House will be familiar with from their French lessons – that's why we need more immersion education with an aim to that being the only form of education in Wales, which in turn would make second-language Welsh redundant.
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SoggyCabbages
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#72
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#72
Don't want to wade through pages of guff, can't remember if I commented on this already.

But I do support this piece of legislation. Although it can be important to keep the Welsh language alive for various reasons, it should not be prioritised over English.
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04MR17
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#73
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#73
I like 2.3, not sure about the rest
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Andrew97
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#74
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#74
This item has entered cessation.
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Andrew97
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#75
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#75
Division, clear the Lobbies!
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