Labour members: who will you vote for leader? Watch

username3941996
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#81
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#81
(Original post by frantika)
Exactly! Their economic policies are somewhat popular, they just need to be toned down a bit (i.e don't nationalise everything). UK is screaming for less neoliberal economic policies.

But Labour's social policies (identity politics, mass immigration, benefits for all etc) are completely unpopular with everyone who isn't a student or from London. Soon as they ditch them, get a bit more of a patriotic image, and have workable economic policies, they will definitely be electable.

Will they do all that? Not with momentum running the ropes.
Here’s the thing, Corbyn was bad with terrible poltics, I’ll accept that but wouldn’t it be better to reform the labour ideals away from Identity Politics than to kick people out?
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#82
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#82
(Original post by frantika)
Plagued by blairism? Plagued by momentum more like
Which is why Miliband and brown both achieved fantastic results? Despite the shocking performance last month, labour still achieved a higher vote share (32.2%) than in 2015 (30.4%) or 2010 (29%). Labour has been in trouble for far longer than Corbyns leadership, partly because of the rise of the SNP and thus labour losing Scotland, but more over because people completely lost faith in labour because of Blair and Brown - how often did you see people reject electoralism because "what's the point of voting, they're all the same?", as well as the rejection of labour by the millennial generation prior to 2017 because a major part of our political education was the war crimes of Blair and Bush. In 2017 Corbyn did remarkably well in reversing that decline that labour had experienced and returning a vote share akin to that of the 2001 landslide (only denied power by the disappearance of 3rd parties). You can argue about what changed to the 2019 election (brexit policy, the extent to which the press became a Tory propaganda outlet) but it's naïve in the extreme to pretend that Blairism is still a winner and Corbyn held the party back
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Johnny Tightlips
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#83
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#83
(Original post by Red Rose Leftist)
Here’s the thing, Corbyn was bad with terrible poltics, I’ll accept that but wouldn’t it be better to reform the labour ideals away from Identity Politics than to kick people out?
I agree with you. But clearly momentum has a stranglehold on Labour; there is very little dialogue within the party otherwise they would have reformed a long time ago.

I mean you've just been categorically wiped out at the last election, yet somehow Corbyn hasn't resigned yet and the same policies he had are still being championed by most of his replacement candidates!
If RLB wins then yeah, people do definitely need kicking out.
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username3941996
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#84
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#84
(Original post by frantika)
I agree with you. But clearly momentum has a stranglehold on Labour; there is very little dialogue within the party otherwise they would have reformed a long time ago.

I mean you've just been categorically wiped out at the last election, yet somehow Corbyn hasn't resigned yet and the same policies he had are still being championed by most of his replacement candidates!
If RLB wins then yeah, people do definitely need kicking out.
Most Momentum members apparently back Starmer over RLB. Maybe it was how she isn’t as similar to Corbyn as they thought, with her Catholic faith and wanting to make Patriotism a left wing idea again.
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Johnny Tightlips
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Red Rose Leftist)
Most Momentum members apparently back Starmer over RLB. Maybe it was how she isn’t as similar to Corbyn as they thought, with her Catholic faith and wanting to make Patriotism a left wing idea again.
That's incorrect, unless they've already changed their minds lol
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...eporting-story (70% of members back her)

Seriously, if they pick RLB it will confirm everything I've said and the Tories will remain in power for another 10+ years. I bet my entire collection of water bottles on it.
Last edited by Johnny Tightlips; 4 weeks ago
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Johnny Tightlips
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Which is why Miliband and brown both achieved fantastic results? Despite the shocking performance last month, labour still achieved a higher vote share (32.2%) than in 2015 (30.4%) or 2010 (29%). Labour has been in trouble for far longer than Corbyns leadership, partly because of the rise of the SNP and thus labour losing Scotland, but more over because people completely lost faith in labour because of Blair and Brown - how often did you see people reject electoralism because "what's the point of voting, they're all the same?", as well as the rejection of labour by the millennial generation prior to 2017 because a major part of our political education was the war crimes of Blair and Bush. In 2017 Corbyn did remarkably well in reversing that decline that labour had experienced and returning a vote share akin to that of the 2001 landslide (only denied power by the disappearance of 3rd parties). You can argue about what changed to the 2019 election (brexit policy, the extent to which the press became a Tory propaganda outlet) but it's naïve in the extreme to pretend that Blairism is still a winner and Corbyn held the party back
I'm afraid I disagree with you. I completely believe that Corbyn and Labour moving further towards the left has held the party back. I'm no fan of Blairism btw. I just believe that moving back towards the centre is what Labour needs, not another left wing leader (like RLB).
Because make no mistake, the Tories have been unequivocally bad at running this country in the past 10 years. Any opposition worth their salt could have easily taken them to task over this. Yet Labour haven't, have won only 30% of the vote on average, and still pat themselves on the back saying "Wow, that's fantastic!". They're so out of touch it is painful to watch.
This is backed up by their commitment to mass immigration, identity politics, utterly wishful economic plans and a moronic cabinet. Things that are unpopular across the spectrum and have been rejected at every single election so far, most emphatically at the last one. Yet here we are now with Labour and Labour voters saying "oh we need more of the same! It's not us who are wrong, it's the brain-washed electorate!". And you call me naive?

Most of the press has been a propaganda outfit for the Tories, that isn't new. But they don't have as large an effect as you claim. As someone from an area that has never voted Tory before (yet most of the people read the daily heil and all the other rags), people hated Corbyn and didn't need a newspaper to tell them that. Blaming the press is just ducking the issues surrounding Labour; that they don't represent the working class anymore. Also, the left too have a major propaganda machine: universities.

As you say, people rejected Blair and Brown mainly because of the iraq war and the recession. I don't think their overall policies were the main reasons (though they played a part) in why they were kicked out. After all, they were in power for over a decade, something the current labour lot can only dream of. Again, I'm no Blairite, I disagree with loads of his policies. But doesn't it clearly demonstrate that they were on the right track?

I agree that the last election was taken up in a large part by Brexit. But again, Labour should have done better here: pick a side and follow it, be it Brexit or remain. Calling for another referendum without having a proper brexit stance just made them look wimpy.
Last edited by Johnny Tightlips; 4 weeks ago
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Johnny Tightlips
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Red Rose Leftist)
All those Pakistani grooming gangs is said to be caused by mass migration - who was PM during that time - Blair.

Anti immigration rhetoric used by the Tories and Farage to advocate for Brexit - Blair’s mass migration policy again.

The belief that Labour spent too much on the NHS - Blair spending.

Getting into the Iraqi War with Bush - Blair’s Foreign Policy.

Blair may be the best thing to happen to Labour but he’s also the worst.
Ah didn't see this. Yeah again I agree with what you say, I am not a fan of Blair n his policies. But he's still proof that moving to the centre can win labour elections.
Last edited by Johnny Tightlips; 4 weeks ago
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Wired_1800
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#88
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#88
(Original post by generallee)
You do realise that we live under a two party system and the Labour Party is the Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, right?

Of course I comment on Labour issues. Its electoral toxicity is of great importance to we Tories. The weaker you are, the stronger it makes us. A two party system is a zero sum game.
Then you should be glad and ignore the Labour Party.
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hotchocolate66
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#89
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#89
(Original post by Wired_1800)
Rebecca Long-Bailey.
Pls stop
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Wired_1800
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#90
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#90
(Original post by hotchocolate66)
Pls stop
Stop what? Stop supporting a candidate that i feel presents the values that i want? Or you want a closet Tory running the Labour Party?
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DSilva
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#91
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#91
Kier Starmer.
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DSilva
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#92
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(Original post by Good bloke)
If members of the Labour Party are generally in agreement with you then it genuinely has no hope of electoral success in Britain. And I do read today that Gabby Lie-Concealer has overtaken Starmer in the polling so that is optimistic. Corbyn was acknowledged as a far left troublemakert, along with McDonnell for a long time before Blair came along. He joined the Campaign Group as soon as he became an MP.

To describe what is probably the wettest Conservative government ever as far right is very odd. Boris is probably further left than Blair was.
What do you think of Kier Starmer?
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hotchocolate66
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Wired_1800)
Stop what? Stop supporting a candidate that i feel presents the values that i want? Or you want a closet Tory running the Labour Party?
Self hatred .
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Johnny Tightlips
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#94
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#94
(Original post by Wired_1800)
Stop what? Stop supporting a candidate that i feel presents the values that i want? Or you want a closet Tory running the Labour Party?
Closet tory? Really?
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Wired_1800
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#95
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#95
(Original post by frantika)
Closet tory? Really?
Some politicians are closet conservatives. It is possible to have such politicians in the Labour Party. There are also politicians who possibly are closet socialists.
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Wired_1800
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#96
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#96
(Original post by hotchocolate66)
Self hatred .
Can you explain please?
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#97
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#97
(Original post by frantika)
I'm afraid I disagree with you. I completely believe that Corbyn and Labour moving further towards the left has held the party back. I'm no fan of Blairism btw. I just believe that moving back towards the centre is what Labour needs, not another left wing leader (like RLB).
Because make no mistake, the Tories have been unequivocally bad at running this country in the past 10 years. Any opposition worth their salt could have easily taken them to task over this. Yet Labour haven't, have won only 30% of the vote on average, and still pat themselves on the back saying "Wow, that's fantastic!". They're so out of touch it is painful to watch.
This is backed up by their commitment to mass immigration, identity politics, utterly wishful economic plans and a moronic cabinet. Things that are unpopular across the spectrum and have been rejected at every single election so far, most emphatically at the last one. Yet here we are now with Labour and Labour voters saying "oh we need more of the same! It's not us who are wrong, it's the brain-washed electorate!". And you call me naive?

Most of the press has been a propaganda outfit for the Tories, that isn't new. But they don't have as large an effect as you claim. As someone from an area that has never voted Tory before (yet most of the people read the daily heil and all the other rags), people hated Corbyn and didn't need a newspaper to tell them that. Blaming the press is just ducking the issues surrounding Labour; that they don't represent the working class anymore. Also, the left too have a major propaganda machine: universities.

As you say, people rejected Blair and Brown mainly because of the iraq war and the recession. I don't think their overall policies were the main reasons (though they played a part) in why they were kicked out. After all, they were in power for over a decade, something the current labour lot can only dream of. Again, I'm no Blairite, I disagree with loads of his policies. But doesn't it clearly demonstrate that they were on the right track?

I agree that the last election was taken up in a large part by Brexit. But again, Labour should have done better here: pick a side and follow it, be it Brexit or remain. Calling for another referendum without having a proper brexit stance just made them look wimpy.
So, you look at two centre left manifestos outdoing the previous two centre right manifestos and think that demonstrates a need to be a centre right party instead? Obviously not, the idea that labour needs to abandon the centre left and drift back rightwards to win votes simply doesn't hold water - the centre right policies were greatly unpopular, the centre left policies were generally popular when polled individually but labour failed to make the case for them as a collective vision rather than looking like a wish list, as well as a poor brexit stance that lost a lot of voters to the tories. Beyond that, the propaganda from the press was absurd, and the press here decide the elections - Murdoch picks the winner every time (and it will be an unequivocally good day for humanity when he returns to the hellfire that spawned him). It's absurd to compare that to universities, as if that educated people tend to be more left wing is comparable to the press printing outright lies and manipulating the information to benefit the Tories (and this includes the BBC, people need to learn that state run media is merely a mouthpiece for the state).
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Good bloke
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#98
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#98
(Original post by DSilva)
What do you think of Kier Starmer?
He is a man who is currently telling the left what they want to hear by appearing to agree with Corbyn's mob (which will come back to haunt him when he tries to be appealing to the electorate), while also being a remainer who wants to re-enter the EU (which again will damage him when it is the electorate he is aiming to please). He is the man who set the police off on always believing the accuser (when he was in government) which is not a good look.
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hotchocolate66
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#99
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#99
(Original post by Wired_1800)
Can you explain please?
You need to accept your identity over views
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Wired_1800
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#100
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#100
(Original post by hotchocolate66)
You need to accept your identity over views
What is this identity? What is the self hatred?
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