Is it harmful that the GMC have allowed medical school cohorts to get so big? Watch

Anonymous #1
#1
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#1
Myself and a few of my friends attend some of the larger medical schools in the UK, and from speaking to fellow medical students that attend smaller medical schools (both in the UK and US), we're convinced that the standard of education just cannot be up to scratch when schools become really big.

I understand that there is a severe doctor shortage atm, but if cramming students into medical schools until the doors don't close leads to all of them not receiving a decent medical education, then surely it is more harmful than helpful?

The only other places I've seen with medical schools as large are some of the 'cash cow' institutions in Eastern Europe and the Caribbean that are infamous for providing a poor-quality education.

Might sound ridiculous but this has started to really worry us and we're concerned that it will be an uphill battle to be good doctors when we come out at the end of this. :/
0
reply
Anonymous #2
#2
Report 1 week ago
#2
Totally agree.
This is why Lancaster > Keele > Imperial.
Best of all home schooling!
Us medics do chat a lot of b*******!
0
reply
Es0phagus
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#3
Report 1 week ago
#3
"we're convinced..." – not sure this is critical thinking, what are your views based on other than a hunch? Do you think med schools are allowed to expand willy-nilly without the impact of such things being carefully considered at a higher level?

"we're concerned..." – again, what is this based on? Have you spoken to past graduates etc. and did they confirm that they were left behind / struggling?

"might sound ridiculous" – it is, find something else to worry about.
Last edited by Es0phagus; 1 week ago
10
reply
AzureCeleste
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#4
Report 1 week ago
#4
I mean regardless of your medical school, everyone has to pass their exams with a certain mark so I don't see how that is harming anyone? You wouldn't be allowed to be a doctor unless you were sufficiently compenent
Then size wise- lectures are bigger, but as far as I'm aware, smaller groups are the same size- there are just more of them.

You haven't given much evidence.........
2
reply
squeakysquirrel
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#5
Report 1 week ago
#5
(Original post by Anonymous)
Myself and a few of my friends attend some of the larger medical schools in the UK, and from speaking to fellow medical students that attend smaller medical schools (both in the UK and US), we're convinced that the standard of education just cannot be up to scratch when schools become really big.

I understand that there is a severe doctor shortage atm, but if cramming students into medical schools until the doors don't close leads to all of them not receiving a decent medical education, then surely it is more harmful than helpful?

The only other places I've seen with medical schools as large are some of the 'cash cow' institutions in Eastern Europe and the Caribbean that are infamous for providing a poor-quality education.

Might sound ridiculous but this has started to really worry us and we're concerned that it will be an uphill battle to be good doctors when we come out at the end of this. :/
Utter rubbish. UK doctors are amongst the best in the world. I have worked in the NHS for 30 years, and whilst I think some of them don't analyse things enough, their knowledge is excellent.
0
reply
999tigger
Badges: 19
#6
Report 1 week ago
#6
(Original post by Anonymous)
Myself and a few of my friends attend some of the larger medical schools in the UK, and from speaking to fellow medical students that attend smaller medical schools (both in the UK and US), we're convinced that the standard of education just cannot be up to scratch when schools become really big.

I understand that there is a severe doctor shortage atm, but if cramming students into medical schools until the doors don't close leads to all of them not receiving a decent medical education, then surely it is more harmful than helpful?

The only other places I've seen with medical schools as large are some of the 'cash cow' institutions in Eastern Europe and the Caribbean that are infamous for providing a poor-quality education.

Might sound ridiculous but this has started to really worry us and we're concerned that it will be an uphill battle to be good doctors when we come out at the end of this. :/
So are you claiming small medical schools are superior to large ones?
Are you suggesting there has been a worrying increase in the number of medical students, so class sizes are growing at the expense of your education?
Dont you all sit the same exam and wouldnt that be a uniform test?
What does your research tell you about the pass rate from students at larger v smaller medical schools?
You think medical schools are close to the standards of E Europe and the Caribbean?
How many are you and your friends?
How many doctors does the UK produce each year?
Are you doing anything to combat the declining quality of training?
What experience do you have of the med school system to enable you to compare?
1
reply
Anonymous #3
#7
Report 1 week ago
#7
The problem with this increasing urge for medical schools to ask students to "self-direct" themselves, is that I'm often wondering, will there be a point where we'll push back and ask: "If we're going to self-direct everything, why do we need you?"

The second problem is that the medical schools are increasingly removing focus on the scientific/academic process of being a doctor that is much more strongly emphasised in other countries, it creates an issue where we're training students to fill jobs in the NHS rather than to be a doctor in the real sense of being capable to advance the field and develop things beyond the scope of their studies.
0
reply
Hype en Ecosse
  • Study Helper
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#8
Report 1 week ago
#8
We need more and bigger medical schools, with more jobs at the end for the graduates.
0
reply
Anonymous #1
#9
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#9
I'll clarify here:

I am NOT saying "Small good. Big bad". I'm exploring the idea that some of the recent large cohort increases without corresponding changes in facilities, faculty size and clinical educators are not ideal. A very small medical school that suddenly adds 10 students without increasing the size of its infrastructure is going to be worse than a very large medical school that adds 100 students but also makes the necessary additions to ensure the standard of education isn't compromised.

Like I've said, this is how me and my friends have been feeling based on conjecture, so I don't have peer-reviewed evidence to refer to, hence why I'm exploring this as a question on TSR, as opposed to stating it as pure fact. I've spoken to some the older students at my university and they used to have 5 of them around the dissection table; in my cohort, there are at least 9 of us. Our tutorial group sizes have apparently doubled. I have even heard of a lot of patients refusing to engage with student teaching during on the wards because they've just been pestered by too many

We're beyond grateful to have gotten to medical school and we worked really hard to get here - I guess we just sometimes worry and want to be the best doctors we can be.


(Original post by Es0phagus)
x
(Original post by AzureCeleste)
x
(Original post by 999tigger)
x
(Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
x
3
reply
Anonymous #1
#10
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#10
(Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
We need more and bigger medical schools, with more jobs at the end for the graduates.
I agree with this completely, as long as there is the infrastructure to support this without there being a drop in the standard of education.
0
reply
Anonymous #1
#11
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#11
(Original post by Anonymous)
The problem with this increasing urge for medical schools to ask students to "self-direct" themselves, is that I'm often wondering, will there be a point where we'll push back and ask: "If we're going to self-direct everything, why do we need you?"

The second problem is that the medical schools are increasingly removing focus on the scientific/academic process of being a doctor that is much more strongly emphasised in other countries, it creates an issue where we're training students to fill jobs in the NHS rather than to be a doctor in the real sense of being capable to advance the field and develop things beyond the scope of their studies.
This is something I've often thought about as well. It feels like there aren't many opportunities to critically engage with some of the things we're learning and actually explore things academically.
0
reply
AzureCeleste
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#12
Report 1 week ago
#12
(Original post by Anonymous)
I'll clarify here:

I am NOT saying "Small good. Big bad". I'm exploring the idea that some of the recent large cohort increases without corresponding changes in facilities, faculty size and clinical educators are not ideal. A very small medical school that suddenly adds 10 students without increasing the size of its infrastructure is going to be worse than a very large medical school that adds 100 students but also makes the necessary additions to ensure the standard of education isn't compromised.

Like I've said, this is how me and my friends have been feeling based on conjecture, so I don't have peer-reviewed evidence to refer to, hence why I'm exploring this as a question on TSR, as opposed to stating it as pure fact. I've spoken to some the older students at my university and they used to have 5 of them around the dissection table; in my cohort, there are at least 9 of us. Our tutorial group sizes have apparently doubled. I have even heard of a lot of patients refusing to engage with student teaching during on the wards because they've just been pestered by too many

We're beyond grateful to have gotten to medical school and we worked really hard to get here - I guess we just sometimes worry and want to be the best doctors we can be.
How do you know they have't done the necessary changes? How do you know wether they are always working at maximum capacity- maybe they have the ability to accept more students?
Smaller can be better, but bigger isn't necessarily worse- you get the opportunity to here from more opinions and voices which can actually be more beneficial, particularly in tutorials. Body to student ratio will depend on number of bodies that have been donated to science.......

Some patients may find 1 student talking to them too much. It's very situation dependent. Also you mention you think we need bigger medical schools with more staff etc. But hospitals aren't going to grow in terms of patients to accommodate these extra medical students- so they would get more annoyed. Other options is sending students further for placement but students don't want this as it is more inconvenient for them.
Last edited by AzureCeleste; 1 week ago
0
reply
FutureDoctor2020
Badges: 9
Rep:
?
#13
Report 1 week ago
#13
(Original post by Anonymous)
The problem with this increasing urge for medical schools to ask students to "self-direct" themselves, is that I'm often wondering, will there be a point where we'll push back and ask: "If we're going to self-direct everything, why do we need you?"

The second problem is that the medical schools are increasingly removing focus on the scientific/academic process of being a doctor that is much more strongly emphasised in other countries, it creates an issue where we're training students to fill jobs in the NHS rather than to be a doctor in the real sense of being capable to advance the field and develop things beyond the scope of their studies.
after 3rd year most medical schools have SDL. Not because they CBA but to teach us how to do it ourselves and manage with clinical specialities. exactly how you'll have to revise as a doctor preparing for speciality exams later in life...
0
reply
Anonymous #4
#14
Report 1 week ago
#14
I certainly know that if our Dental school had anywhere near the number of medical students, the quality of teaching would suffer.

We have a very low student:staff ratio, with there being a consultant/qualified dentist for every 10ish students. This may be due to he emphasis on the clinical aspect.
0
reply
Anonymous #1
#15
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#15
Thanks for your response - this is kind of what I wanted to discuss.

I find this quite interesting as were told at secondary school that, although most of our university teaching would probably be in lectures, it would be the concentrated nature of small group practicals and tutorials that would really define our learning.


I'm aware that the number of donated cadavers can vary year on year - I was just surprised that the group sizes increased that much.


(Original post by AzureCeleste)
How do you know they have't done the necessary changes? How do you know wether they are always working at maximum capacity- maybe they have the ability to accept more students?
Smaller can be better, but bigger isn't necessarily worse- you get the opportunity to here from more opinions and voices which can actually be more beneficial, particularly in tutorials. Body to student ratio will depend on number of bodies that have been donated to science.......

Some patients may find 1 student talking to them too much. It's very situation dependent.
0
reply
Anonymous #1
#16
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#16
(Original post by FutureDoctor2020)
after 3rd year most medical schools have SDL. Not because they CBA but to teach us how to do it ourselves and manage with clinical specialities. exactly how you'll have to revise as a doctor preparing for speciality exams later in life...
Yeah, I'm very aware that studying during clinical years is extremely independent - I just want there to be the time and opportunities to facilitate my own learning during that time
0
reply
AzureCeleste
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#17
Report 1 week ago
#17
(Original post by Anonymous)
Thanks for your response - this is kind of what I wanted to discuss.

I find this quite interesting as were told at secondary school that, although most of our university teaching would probably be in lectures, it would be the concentrated nature of small group practicals and tutorials that would really define our learning.


I'm aware that the number of donated cadavers can vary year on year - I was just surprised that the group sizes increased that much.
I feel like smaller group practicals and tutorials are more to supplement your learning from the lectures (at least mine are). I also edited my previous post at the end, would be interested to here your opinion on making bigger medical schools.
0
reply
Anonymous #1
#18
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#18
Sorry, just to add to my earlier reply to you. This thread was opened at 2AM after a very frustrating day of waiting hours to be seen for an occupational health appointment, along with a lot of other people in my cohort; having a tutor cancel a meeting because they have too many students to see; and another student telling me she was struggling to get practice time in her clinical skills lab. Perhaps they have made the necessary changes to the infrastructure, but it doesn't feel that way for us (yet...).
(Original post by Anonymous)
Thanks for your response - this is kind of what I wanted to discuss.

I find this quite interesting as were told at secondary school that, although most of our university teaching would probably be in lectures, it would be the concentrated nature of small group practicals and tutorials that would really define our learning.


I'm aware that the number of donated cadavers can vary year on year - I was just surprised that the group sizes increased that much.
(Original post by AzureCeleste)
How do you know they have't done the necessary changes? How do you know wether they are always working at maximum capacity- maybe they have the ability to accept more students?
Smaller can be better, but bigger isn't necessarily worse- you get the opportunity to here from more opinions and voices which can actually be more beneficial, particularly in tutorials. Body to student ratio will depend on number of bodies that have been donated to science.......

Some patients may find 1 student talking to them too much. It's very situation dependent. Also you mention you think we need bigger medical schools with more staff etc. But hospitals aren't going to grow in terms of patients to accommodate these extra medical students- so they would get more annoyed. Other options is sending students further for placement but students don't want this as it is more inconvenient for them.
0
reply
Es0phagus
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#19
Report 1 week ago
#19
(Original post by Anonymous)
Thanks for your response - this is kind of what I wanted to discuss.

I find this quite interesting as were told at secondary school that, although most of our university teaching would probably be in lectures, it would be the concentrated nature of small group practicals and tutorials that would really define our learning.


I'm aware that the number of donated cadavers can vary year on year - I was just surprised that the group sizes increased that much.
You know, if class sizes did not increase, there's a good chance you (or some of us) wouldn't even be in medical school right now.

Having said that, it does seem you have fair grievances with your med school, maybe it's worth raising it with them directly if you haven't already?
0
reply
Anonymous #1
#20
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#20
(Original post by Es0phagus)
You know, if class sizes did not increase, there's a good chance you (or some of us) wouldn't even be in medical school right now.

Having said that, it does seem you have fair grievances with your med school, maybe it's worth raising it with them directly if you haven't already?
Yeah, imposter syndrome means I've thought this countless times since my offer. Nevertheless, I worked really hard to get my place and I'm here now, so I think it's only fair that I try to get the best medical education I can.

I know some of the issues I've mentioned are specific to my institution, but as some of my friends have mentioned similar issues at their medical schools, it does make me wonder if there could be a wider problem.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

University open days

  • The University of Law
    Solicitor Series: Assessing Trainee Skills – LPC, GDL and MA Law - Guildford campus Postgraduate
    Wed, 29 Jan '20
  • Nottingham Trent University
    Postgraduate Open Day Postgraduate
    Wed, 29 Jan '20
  • University of Groningen
    Undergraduate Open Day Undergraduate
    Fri, 31 Jan '20

What's stopping you doing a masters?

It's too expensive (6)
20%
My career doesn't need one (3)
10%
I'm sick of studying (8)
26.67%
I can't find a course I want to do (1)
3.33%
I don't know enough about them (2)
6.67%
Nothing, I'm going to do it! (10)
33.33%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise