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I am normally democratic but such people don't deserve a position in my university.

My heart speaking? Yes, and thankfully for our hearts speaking we aren't speaking German today and saying our daily alligence to a member of the Hitler family.
Reply 2
pghstochaj
I am normally democratic but such people don't deserve a position in my university.

How can someone / a group justify having the right to decide how freedom of speech is defined, yet still claim a democracy?......
They can't, its as simple as that. The views of the group in question are completely irrelevant, what may be unacceptable to one group may be favourable to another, and the whole point of a democratic system is that neither group, irrelevant of it's constituent numbers, has the right to conclude whether or not a particular view is aloud to be preached, assuming otherwise is very dangerous and will piss people off, even if they don't necessarily associate themselves with the group, just as this has pissed me off despite not agreeing with the views of the BNP.
Reply 3
Extra comment: let's face it the Socialist Worker society were pissed off that someone from the BNP infiltrated their group..........settling a score at the expense of the democratic reputation of the union..........very selfish.
pghstochaj
I am normally democratic but such people don't deserve a position in my university.

My heart speaking? Yes, and thankfully for our hearts speaking we aren't speaking German today and saying our daily alligence to a member of the Hitler family.

your university??

How do you decide what parties should be allowed and which shouldn't. Say I am a road user is feeling persecution from the green party a big enough reason to ban them too. Hey and actually the tory party discriminates against the middle classes so lets ban them to! :rolleyes:

In this arguement the notion of what is good and bad is totally subjective and we should not force our view of what is right on to others if we are in a democracy. I find it offensive the Union thinks that we do not have enough sense to be able to see how bad the policies of the BNP for ourselves are. And the reasons given for banning them are a joke, its hardly like they have been firebombing rusholme curry shops.
I personally don't, the University does and thank God to that. As a person disgusted by the BNPs views and somebody affected by how such views can affect others, I am truly happy by the decision.

Subjective? Opinion? Anybody that feels such a party deserves a place in our society should question what's wrong with them and why they feel like that. If somebody like Hitler had done that, got rid of his nationalistic viewpoint and changed, the world wouldn't have lost millions of people.

My University as I attend it, nothing wrong with using "my" in that sense I believe you will find.

UMIST/Manchester is such a multi-ethnical group of people if the BNP were allowed to act as a normal society, people could feel threatened. My Polish grandfather had a BNP member come onto his drive when washing his car, when he threw the leaflet on the floor and washed water over it the person got aggressive, my grandpa reminded him how he had lost most of his family to such nationalist views and the person nearly struck him (he was 84 at the time). That was threatening and I wouldn't like anybody else to feel under that pressure in the University, especially if they were new to the country as a whole. The political "beliefs" of the BNP would make these people feel unwelcome at the University and thankfully the "powers that be" have taken steps to prevent any possible institutionalised racism.

I believe you will find that the banning of certain political parties exists world wide, such as the NAZI party in Germany. I guess that makes Germany an undemocratic country? No. Sometimes people (especially those easily taken in, there are plenty out there) need to be protected.

And how do you mean "not force our views on what is right"? In happens elsewhere in our education system so this is no different - for example the compulsary teaching of Christianity in primary schools.

Next time the middle classes start because racist facists maybe we should ban them :tongue:
Reply 6
pghstochaj
I am normally democratic but such people don't deserve a position in my university.

My heart speaking? Yes, and thankfully for our hearts speaking we aren't speaking German today and saying our daily alligence to a member of the Hitler family.


Oh. Grow up! WTF do you think democracy is? Just folks that repeat your own bloody mantra?
Reply 7
Speciez99
How more undemocratic can our union get? and the reason given in student direct "they pose a threat to minority groups". Me thinks everyones hearts spoke rather than their heads.


I would sue the ass off the SU for this.
Glad everybody feels that we don't have a right to feel safe. As I said before, the vunerable in society (be it the target audience of the BNP or the people who feel threatened by them) need to be protected - a lot of people can't make their mind up on their own. What if I am all for a "murder society" where we kill people, I know, you will say "it's against the law and would be banned" but so is inciting racism, something the BNP love doing, therefore there's plenty of justification IMO.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me -
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller


I won't say anymore on this matter, you know my opinion and thankfully this is what is happening at our University.

Oh and Howard, such constructive comments. :smile:
Reply 9
pghstochaj
Glad everybody feels that we don't have a right to feel safe. As I said before, the vunerable in society (be it the target audience of the BNP or the people who feel threatened by them) need to be protected - a lot of people can't make their mind up on their own.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me -
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller


I won't say anymore on this matter, you know my opinion and thankfully this is what is happening at our University.

Oh and Howard, such constructive comments. :smile:


Who else don't you agree with and would like to ban?
Well what about people that don't agree with me? :tongue:

I would like to ban smoking in public, that will come, fox hunting is a good one, good news on that point :smile:


And before you say "you'll ban everything" I can imagine that being your reply. No, i wouldn't, just the things that infringe human rights (with the right to feel safe being more important than the right to join a facist political group).

I have a personal perspective on this as it's a facist political party like the BNP who killed a lot of my family, it's kind of close to home.

I promise this is my last comment as much as you may try to get a further reply lol.
Reply 11
pghstochaj
Well what about people that don't agree with me? :tongue:

I would like to ban smoking in public, that will come, fox hunting is a good one, good news on that point :smile:


And before you say "you'll ban everything" I can imagine that being your reply. No, i wouldn't, just the things that infringe human rights (with the right to feel safe being more important than the right to join a facist political group).

I have a personal perspective on this as it's a facist political party like the BNP who killed a lot of my family, it's kind of close to home.

I promise this is my last comment as much as you may try to get a further reply lol.



But you don't mind infringing on people's human rights to free thought and expression? How sad.

And as for this "..........(with the right to feel safe being more important than the right to join a facist political group)" you might like to dwell on Voltaire's comment:

"He that would give up liberty for security deserves neither"
pghstochaj
Glad everybody feels that we don't have a right to feel safe. As I said before, the vunerable in society (be it the target audience of the BNP or the people who feel threatened by them) need to be protected - a lot of people can't make their mind up on their own. What if I am all for a "murder society" where we kill people, I know, you will say "it's against the law and would be banned" but so is inciting racism, something the BNP love doing, therefore there's plenty of justification IMO.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me -
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller


I won't say anymore on this matter, you know my opinion and thankfully this is what is happening at our University.

Oh and Howard, such constructive comments. :smile:

You have just managed to quote something that highlights the benifits of free speech! The whole point of Niemoller saying is he wants people to speak out about things like the BNP. He however is not advocating something because he percieves them to be a threat should be banned. Its very ironic that you choose Hitler as your example as one of the first things taht he did was once in power was to ban the communist party and then slowly all the other parties.

If we have free speech they have the ability to choose what we want, without we have no choice. Personally choice is better everytime.

Where on our campus has the BNP incited racial tension and acted in a way that would justify their banning. There is a reason the party actually exists and the governement hasnt actually banned them.
pghstochaj
I personally don't, the University does and thank God to that. As a person disgusted by the BNPs views and somebody affected by how such views can affect others, I am truly happy by the decision.

Subjective? Opinion? Anybody that feels such a party deserves a place in our society should question what's wrong with them and why they feel like that. If somebody like Hitler had done that, got rid of his nationalistic viewpoint and changed, the world wouldn't have lost millions of people.

My University as I attend it, nothing wrong with using "my" in that sense I believe you will find.

The SU should represent all our views and it can't do that if some views can be deemed to be wrong to such an extent we are going to ban those who utter them.

Nationalistic doesnt not equal hitler, UKIP is quite nationistic yet we are not banning them. I have no problem banning individual members from our union is they are inciting racial hatred, however you cannot ban a whole political party. You are assuming all members of that party are threats and taht is not fair.
pghstochaj

UMIST/Manchester is such a multi-ethnical group of people if the BNP were allowed to act as a normal society, people could feel threatened. My Polish grandfather had a BNP member come onto his drive when washing his car, when he threw the leaflet on the floor and washed water over it the person got aggressive, my grandpa reminded him how he had lost most of his family to such nationalist views and the person nearly struck him (he was 84 at the time). That was threatening and I wouldn't like anybody else to feel under that pressure in the University, especially if they were new to the country as a whole. The political "beliefs" of the BNP would make these people feel unwelcome at the University and thankfully the "powers that be" have taken steps to prevent any possible institutionalised racism.

I believe you will find that the banning of certain political parties exists world wide, such as the NAZI party in Germany. I guess that makes Germany an undemocratic country? No. Sometimes people (especially those easily taken in, there are plenty out there) need to be protected.

And how do you mean "not force our views on what is right"? In happens elsewhere in our education system so this is no different - for example the compulsary teaching of Christianity in primary schools.

Next time the middle classes start because racist facists maybe we should ban them :tongue:

I am sorry about your grandfather however that is not enough to justify banning a political party. You choose to send your child to that school. And under english law adults are responsible for their children up until the age of 18 as the children cannot be expected to make rational decisions. I will remind you of this which states:
Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

You are saying the UN declearation of Human rights is wrong.

Yes political parties are banned in some countries where the party is inciting hatred, yet the BNP is recognised by parliament as a democratic political party for a reason. Hence it is not banned and our union should be no different.
Reply 14
If the BNP were allowed to exist on campus it would infringe on other peoples freedom of speech. Minority groups would hide away in fear of being targetted by the BNP.

Were you at the General Meeting? Did you vote on this motion? I was, I voted in favour of it.
Tev
If the BNP were allowed to exist on campus it would infringe on other peoples freedom of speech. Minority groups would hide away in fear of being targetted by the BNP.

Were you at the General Meeting? Did you vote on this motion? I was, I voted in favour of it.

so which minority groups have been targetted by the BNP?

and your arguement is going to have to be a little better than that to convice me that they are in such danger that we need to contrivene the UN declearation of human rights.

I sadly was unable to attend the meeting, due to football and my hall team, however from what i have heard the motion was passed resoundingly.
I am a practising Jew and lost many family members in the Holocaust. I also write for Student Direct. I am completely against the BNP and everything they represent. However, I am against us banning the BNP for two reasons:

1) We are a student union, and as such, as has been said above, we have to allow all views to be aired, whether we like them or not, otherwise we are giving them an opportunity to claim that it is us who are intolerant and undemocratic

and more importantly

2) Now they can't get representation/air their views at the union, how are they going to air them? what are they going to resort to?
Reply 17
I am against the BNP but would not vote against banning it, just place stricter guidelines on it. It is not very sporting just banning it outright. Join the Conservatives anyway, the BNP is just a party of uneducated bigots, as that documentary showed during the summer.
Reply 18
pghstochaj
I personally don't, the University does and thank God to that. As a person disgusted by the BNPs views and somebody affected by how such views can affect others, I am truly happy by the decision.


You are happy that our union no longer gives its members the right to associational autonomy? Which, its worth adding, is seen as fundamental in democracies?

I of course find the BNP very unpaletable. But quite frankly the action of the union to which I was a member prior to these events has been disgusting. Left wing extremism is no better than right wing extremism. The union preaches about how diverse we all are and how great it is... but seems not to be able to stomach the fact some people have different political views to their own.
Reply 19
Freedom Of Speech Or What Ever You Think /belive In.
I Dont Really Care.
Bnp Are Racist As Seen In The Bbc Programme.
And When I See You Bnp Supporters/members. You Will Have A Terrible Time At Manchester University.
Bnp Wont Dare Go Up Against Us.
THE UNION HAS DONE THE RIGHT THING FOR BANNING TROUBLE AND RACISTS.
THEY ALL DESERVE TO BE PUNISHED. THEIR SUPPORTERS AND MEMBERS.