P101 – Domestic Air Passenger Duty Reform Watch

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Miss Maddie
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This petition calls for domestic air passenger duty to be removed on domestic flights. The petition also calls for a new scheme based on emissions of aircraft types applying to non-EU flights only.

Regional APD

What do BA Connect, Virgin Atlantic Little Red, Flybmi Regional and Flybe all have in common?

They are all failed or failing regional airlines. Flybe was recently saved after the government agreed to postpone its £100m+ annual APD bill for 3 years. In 3 years the bill will be £300m+. It is unsustainable for Flybe to keep postponing its APD bill. The day will come where it runs out of money.

Regional airlines are struggling to survive. It is impossible to offer affordable ticket prices when with current APD of between £13 - £78 per flight. Furthermore, it is a double tax since airlines already pay tax under the EU Emissions Trading Scheme, this will continue for the foreseeable future.

Lastly, it is also impossible to properly compete when rail travel is subsidised by £6.4bn per year. Some might argue lower APD will result in decreased train usage and higher carbon emissions. However, there is no evidence to show a reduction in domestic APD will lead to a decrease in train usage.
Last edited by Miss Maddie; 4 weeks ago
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04MR17
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Andrew97 :fyi:


My personal view is that we shouldn't be encouraging air travel due to its environmental impact. When air travel is made more environmentally friendly then I'm fully on board.
Last edited by 04MR17; 4 weeks ago
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Andrew97 :fyi:


My personal view is that we shouldn't be encouraging air travel due to its environmental impact. When air travel is made more environmentally friendly then I'm fully on board.
Is that worth closing off parts of our own country?

It's all well and good saying anywhere can be reached using a bus and train. The problem is time. People don't have the time to waste on these slower forms
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04MR17
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
Is that worth closing off parts of our own country?

It's all well and good saying anywhere can be reached using a bus and train. The problem is time. People don't have the time to waste on these slower forms
If by parts of our own country you mean British airspace then yes. If by parts of our own country you just mean another part of the country that you can reach within a day on the road, then I don't think air passenger duty closes them off.
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by 04MR17)
If by parts of our own country you mean British airspace then yes. If by parts of our own country you just mean another part of the country that you can reach within a day on the road, then I don't think air passenger duty closes them off.
Northern powerhouse they say. I'm not surprised it's lagging behind when getting there from London takes 3hrs in your anti flying world and 1hr in my pro flying world
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04MR17
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
Northern powerhouse they say. I'm not surprised it's lagging behind when getting there from London takes 3hrs in your anti flying world and 1hr in my pro flying world
You can get a train to Manchester from Euston in a little over 2 hours, Liverpool in 2 and a half. I don't see that as a major problem that needs to be tackled. :confused:
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by 04MR17)
You can get a train to Manchester from Euston in a little over 2 hours, Liverpool in 2 and a half. I don't see that as a major problem that needs to be tackled. :confused:
Manchester and Liverpool aren't in the North...
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Andrew97
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Andrew97 :fyi:


My personal view is that we shouldn't be encouraging air travel due to its environmental impact. When air travel is made more environmentally friendly then I'm fully on board.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
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04MR17
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
Manchester and Liverpool aren't in the North...
Northern powerhouse (which you cited) is an initiative which includes those two cities, both of which are categorised as the North West by every registered authority I've ever seen. If you wish to believe differently then be my guest but I promise I'm not the one inventing Geography.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by 04MR17)
You can get a train to Manchester from Euston in a little over 2 hours, Liverpool in 2 and a half. I don't see that as a major problem that needs to be tackled. :confused:
That's a rather London-centric view you have there, when you take a less London-centric view things become far less comfortable
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04MR17
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
That's a rather London-centric view you have there, when you take a less London-centric view things become far less comfortable
Miss Maddie was talking about getting to North "from London" (exact phrase). If you're going to accuse somebody of being London centric perhaps do so for the person who brought up London and the transport connections from it? Not the person replying. I can talk about trains going between Liverpool, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Preston, Manchester, Stoke, Birmingham, Southampton, Bristol if you'd prefer? What is it you'd like me to say?
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Jammy Duel
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"Flybe was recently saved after the government agreed to postpone its £100m+ annual APD bill for 3 years. In 3 years the bill will be £300m+. It is unsustainable for Flybe to keep postponing its APD bill. The day will come where it runs out of money."

It's worth noting that the point of the deferral is to allow time for the cash position to be improved. Cash flow from operating activities for Flybe is fine, for the year to 31/03/2018 it was £13.8m, there was then a net cash flow from investing activities of (£15.5m) due to buying a load of new stuff which is not unreasonable, the big problem is debt, a net cash flow from financing activities of (£26.7m) which is quite heavily responsible for the poor cash position. Flybe also has significant USD denominated debts which make it quite vulnerable to £ : $ currency fluctuations.

You are quite right to say the Time to Pay agreement doesn't in and of itself solve the problem, it kicks it down the road, but those three years allows the position to be improved, most obviously by reducing the debt and thus allowing more healthy cash flows.

I must say though that I am somewhat concerned by the 2018/19 accounting period being extended
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Northern powerhouse (which you cited) is an initiative which includes those two cities, both of which are categorised as the North West by every registered authority I've ever seen. If you wish to believe differently then be my guest but I promise I'm not the one inventing Geography.
Forgive my UK geography. I was thinking of Birmingham. That aside, air travel still takes half the time compared to trains. The boost to the northern powerhouse is worth more than any pollution caused
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
That's a rather London-centric view you have there, when you take a less London-centric view things become far less comfortable
TSR for you. Everyone lives in big cities with great public transport. They can't see how remote and out the way places are
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04MR17
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
TSR for you. Everyone lives in big cities with great public transport. They can't see how remote and out the way places are
You are literally the person who brought up London...
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04MR17
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
Forgive my UK geography. I was thinking of Birmingham. That aside, air travel still takes half the time compared to trains. The boost to the northern powerhouse is worth more than any pollution caused
And what exactly is the boost to the Northern Powerhouse (which is kind of a dead idea anyway now) from this Petition?

You've yet to explain to me why the current times to travel within the UK is a problem. If it's not broken don't try to fix it.
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by 04MR17)
And what exactly is the boost to the Northern Powerhouse (which is kind of a dead idea anyway now) from this Petition?

You've yet to explain to me why the current times to travel within the UK is a problem. If it's not broken don't try to fix it.
At minimum halving travel times between cities more than 150 direct miles away makes commuting from north to south or vice versa possible. Forgotten about towns and cities will suddenly become more viable to get to
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04MR17
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
At minimum halving travel times between cities more than 150 direct miles away makes commuting from north to south or vice versa possible. Forgotten about towns and cities will suddenly become more viable to get to
And?
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
"Flybe was recently saved after the government agreed to postpone its £100m+ annual APD bill for 3 years. In 3 years the bill will be £300m+. It is unsustainable for Flybe to keep postponing its APD bill. The day will come where it runs out of money."

It's worth noting that the point of the deferral is to allow time for the cash position to be improved. Cash flow from operating activities for Flybe is fine, for the year to 31/03/2018 it was £13.8m, there was then a net cash flow from investing activities of (£15.5m) due to buying a load of new stuff which is not unreasonable, the big problem is debt, a net cash flow from financing activities of (£26.7m) which is quite heavily responsible for the poor cash position. Flybe also has significant USD denominated debts which make it quite vulnerable to £ : $ currency fluctuations.

You are quite right to say the Time to Pay agreement doesn't in and of itself solve the problem, it kicks it down the road, but those three years allows the position to be improved, most obviously by reducing the debt and thus allowing more healthy cash flows.

I must say though that I am somewhat concerned by the 2018/19 accounting period being extended
It has all this extra time to reduce its debt. It is realistic without APD being ended? I would say no. The APD severely lowers profit margins. Over the next 3 years fuel will go up, airport fees will go up and aircraft maintenance will become more costly as aircraft age. A potential minimum extra £13 per passenger would be hugely beneficial on existing routes, plus it allows other routes to open that would otherwise be too costly for the consumer generating even more cash.
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by 04MR17)
And?
People living in these poorer cities can commute for better paying jobs. They have more money. They spend more money in their local area. Their areas become wealthier. The areas become more desirable. More people move in. More money for councils. More people spending. Places get even wealthier. Natural investment happens in wealthier areas. Places catch up to London. London and everywhere else parity even nearer.

It's already happened in places close to where higher paying jobs are. E.g. London and its surrounding towns and cities, Bristol and the south Welsh cites, and Glasgow with Edinburgh.
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