P102 – Ban puberty blockers being given to children Watch

This discussion is closed.
Miss Maddie
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#1
Staff at England's only trans clinc are fearing long term damage to prepubescent children receiving puberty blockers. Part of the reason is the existence of highly politicised trans pressure groups pushing for fast tracked gender transition for people who are incapable of giving informed consent

The petition calls on the government to outlaw the issuing of puberty blockers to patients under the age of 16.

This is to gauge opinion. If it's popular I'll write a bill
0
Noodlzzz
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#2
Report 4 weeks ago
#2
Not really weighing in on this, but there as significantly more than average trans children being on the autistic spectrum. Thoughts on this relevance?
2
Miss Maddie
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#3
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#3
(Original post by Noodlzzz)
Not really weighing in on this, but there as significantly more than average trans children being on the autistic spectrum. Thoughts on this relevance?
There is a confirmed link between autism and trans and non-binary identification.

Autistic children, who are already struggling with expressing how they feel, are having the concept of trans being forced on them by pressure groups. they are forced into having puberty blockers against consent and that causes further issues later on in life
0
SankaraInBloom
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#4
Report 4 weeks ago
#4
I personally think the gender transition process as it stands is rigorous and safeguarded well enough to maintain current practices. My view is plain and simple: if someone suffers from prolonged gender dysphoria which is diagnosed and they are deemed to be of sound body and mind, I see absolutely no merit to blocking the transition.

I personally don't think that our National Health Service or indeed the private sector pose any relevant danger to trans individuals during the process - every step of the way is tested and re-tested until it is absolutely clear that the individual is ready to take on the next phase of the process. I think this sort of petition jumps on a dangerous bandwagon off the back of people who don't really understand gender dysphoria or how gender transitioning works.
6
Glaz
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#5
Report 4 weeks ago
#5
Reluctantly I have to agree with this.

Kids under 16 can say they're trans/enby or whatever but I don't think they should be taking HRT for it at that age, not only because it can be damaging but because they're too young to start treatment.

They're not too young to identify (for example I knew I was trans since like before I was like 5 years old) but I don't think that under 16 year olds should be given HRT/puberty blockers or anything.
3
Noodlzzz
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#6
Report 4 weeks ago
#6
There is also a lot in the media about de-transitioning. There is a psychological finding called 'the end of history illusion' whereby people believe that their current self is stable and who they really are, and that their old self is their old self. Psychological speaking, who we identify as who we are now isn't a stable concept, despite how it might feel as such. Wondering if the two are related?
1
SankaraInBloom
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#7
Report 4 weeks ago
#7
(Original post by Noodlzzz)
There is also a lot in the media about de-transitioning. There is a psychological finding called 'the end of history illusion' whereby people believe that their current self is stable and who they really are, and that their old self is their old self. Psychological speaking, who we identify as who we are now isn't a stable concept, despite how it might feel as such. Wondering if the two are related?
De-transitioning on the whole seems to a minority case situation which has been overblown publicly by anti-trans advocacy groups in order to reinforce a personal agenda that would be inherently damaging to the trans community. I personally think trying to assess this on a purely psychological basis doesn't work, gender dysphoria is something which has both genetic and environmental causes, and that has to be fundamentally considered. I don't think a psychiatrist's log book is the only way that can be done, although psychological and mental health evaluations of those undergoing the transition process are rightly carried out, to understand and pinpoint any changing feelings or any other underlying issues extended by suffering from gender dysphoria
1
Noodlzzz
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#8
Report 4 weeks ago
#8
(Original post by SankaraInBloom)
De-transitioning on the whole seems to a minority case situation which has been overblown publicly by anti-trans advocacy groups in order to reinforce a personal agenda that would be inherently damaging to the trans community. I personally think trying to assess this on a purely psychological basis doesn't work, gender dysphoria is something which has both genetic and environmental causes, and that has to be fundamentally considered. I don't think a psychiatrist's log book is the only way that can be done, although psychological and mental health evaluations of those undergoing the transition process are rightly carried out, to understand and pinpoint any changing feelings or any other underlying issues extended by suffering from gender dysphoria
Of course, nothing should be completely one sided, but I firmly believe that gender identification is a psychological concept, be that outside of the context of mental health, which you seem to imply I am referring to (please correct me if wrong!)
0
SankaraInBloom
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#9
Report 4 weeks ago
#9
(Original post by Miss Maddie)
There is a confirmed link between autism and trans and non-binary identification.

Autistic children, who are already struggling with expressing how they feel, are having the concept of trans being forced on them by pressure groups. they are forced into having puberty blockers against consent and that causes further issues later on in life
I absolutely disagree. "Trans pressure groups" are nowhere near as powerful as you seem to think. As for the article in question, Anglia Ruskin University seem to have made it clear that the higher reported rate seems to stem from a more focused perspective on the behalf of ASD sufferers, meaning that they are more meticulous to actively consider issues regarding gender identity due to naturally being non-conformist, as opposed to non-ASD sufferers who would actively avoid those sorts of conversations and likely wouldn't consider them due to wider stigmatisation.

As someone who is mildly on the autistic spectrum, don't demean us by pretending we don't know what we're doing. There are obvious naiveties, certainly, but autistic people are people too and should have their thoughts, personal intelligence and identity validated, much as trans people ought to as well.
3
SankaraInBloom
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#10
Report 4 weeks ago
#10
(Original post by Noodlzzz)
Of course, nothing should be completely one sided, but I firmly believe that gender identification is a psychological concept, be that outside of the context of mental health, which you seem to imply I am referring to (please correct me if wrong!)
Gender identity and issues surrounding dysphoria have been princely linked to both genetic and environmental factors. I'll find out the studies pertaining to this later on when I get the time to look through and highlight relevant bits, but gender identity is in itself more than a one-dimensional psychological concept. As with virtually everything on this planet, there's individualistic nuances to it.
0
princetonalec
Badges: 17
Rep:
?
#11
Report 4 weeks ago
#11
1) The whole point of blockers is to stop the development of secondary sex characteristics. These have already developed at 16: the age for hormone treatment may as well just be lowered to 16 if you're going to argue for puberty blockers to be given at this age.
2) They aren't throwing out blockers like candy to children. Has the system crumbled a little due to being severely underfunded and having an increase in referrals? Yes. But there are still HUGE safe guarding protocols in place for these children to minimise as much damage as possible.
3) On autism and trans people: I am an autistic trans man. The leading theory is more autistic people are trans since we don't understand the strict lines or the strict rules for men and women anyway. An allistic trans man may have had to struggle with expectations of womenhood for his entire life before transitioning, i've never understood why skirts are only for girls and have had no connection to 'womenhood' because its an abstract concept to me. If you want to have a detailed discussion about trans people and autism, there are trans autistic people you can speak to on the subject. Don't just assume young autistic persons are being 'brainwashed' when they're not.
4) As previously mentioned on this thread detransitioning is INCREDIBLY rare, with cases only being easy to find because I would argue most cis people don't think trans people are real. The assumption is that we were brainwashed or we are delusional, and one day we will realise the truth.
There are already safe guards in place for young children, blockers are only effective if provided before puberty, and autistic people are fully realised people who can be trans.
5
Miss Maddie
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#12
Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
#12
(Original post by SankaraInBloom)
I absolutely disagree. "Trans pressure groups" are nowhere near as powerful as you seem to think. As for the article in question, Anglia Ruskin University seem to have made it clear that the higher reported rate seems to stem from a more focused perspective on the behalf of ASD sufferers, meaning that they are more meticulous to actively consider issues regarding gender identity due to naturally being non-conformist, as opposed to non-ASD sufferers who would actively avoid those sorts of conversations and likely wouldn't consider them due to wider stigmatisation.

As someone who is mildly on the autistic spectrum, don't demean us by pretending we don't know what we're doing. There are obvious naiveties, certainly, but autistic people are people too and should have their thoughts, personal intelligence and identity validated, much as trans people ought to as well.
You are responding to the point no one made. The problem is not only autistic children. It's all children. Young children don't know what they're doing.

There's legal standing for this point. The age of criminal responsibility is 10 and campaigners want it to be at least 14. Young enough to commit a crime because they don't understand their actions. Old enough to decide to delay puberty. It doesn't make sense
0
SankaraInBloom
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#13
Report 4 weeks ago
#13
(Original post by Miss Maddie)
You are responding to the point no one made. The problem is not only autistic children. It's all children. Young children don't know what they're doing.

There's legal standing for this point. The age of criminal responsibility is 10 and campaigners want it to be at least 14. Young enough to commit a crime because they don't understand their actions. Old enough to decide to delay puberty. It doesn't make sense
I don't support the latter point. The age of criminal responsibility being set at 10 is perfectly respectable, especially in a day and age where we hear all too often about "children growing up too fast". You're equally presenting an argument that no one in this debate has been remotely suggestible to.
0
SnowMiku
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#14
Report 4 weeks ago
#14
I don't agree with this. If a person under 16 is adamant and have been adamant for a reasonable length of time e.g at least a few years, then it's not an impulse decision and it's a genuine want.
About the crime debate, we are talking about a young person taking control of their future, to potentially avoid years of dysphoria and not being comfortable. Crimes don't just involve them though, and that's a difference.
The issuing of blockers only affects a small amount of trans people from what I understand, and in a system where mental health help is getting increasing harder to obtain, we need to keep the avenues we currently have open.
2
Bailey14
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#15
Report 4 weeks ago
#15
I'll be abstaining on this petition as I see both arguments for and against the subject of the debate.
0
abcthe123
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#16
Report 4 weeks ago
#16
Clown world.
1
Saracen's Fez
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#17
Report 4 weeks ago
#17
(Original post by SankaraInBloom)
I personally think the gender transition process as it stands is rigorous and safeguarded well enough to maintain current practices. My view is plain and simple: if someone suffers from prolonged gender dysphoria which is diagnosed and they are deemed to be of sound body and mind, I see absolutely no merit to blocking the transition.
I generally agree with this and also dispute that under-16s are necessarily too young to be giving informed consent.

I also think we're at risk of veering into transphobic conspiracy theories in certain parts of this debate so far.
4
Jammy Duel
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#18
Report 4 weeks ago
#18
(Original post by SankaraInBloom)
I personally think the gender transition process as it stands is rigorous and safeguarded well enough to maintain current practices. My view is plain and simple: if someone suffers from prolonged gender dysphoria which is diagnosed and they are deemed to be of sound body and mind, I see absolutely no merit to blocking the transition.

I personally don't think that our National Health Service or indeed the private sector pose any relevant danger to trans individuals during the process - every step of the way is tested and re-tested until it is absolutely clear that the individual is ready to take on the next phase of the process. I think this sort of petition jumps on a dangerous bandwagon off the back of people who don't really understand gender dysphoria or how gender transitioning works.
How do we determine whether somebody is of sound body and mind, those involved in the process seem to disagree with the statement that there are rigourous safeguards, instead suggesting that there are countless misdiagnoses due to fear of being the next target of abuse from the trans lobby. We have to remember here that we aren't talking about popping some pills that might have some uncomfortable side effects but have negligible chance of any long term ill effects like most misdiagnoses, rather courses of treatment that have life changing and irreversible side effects.
0
Aph
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#19
Report 4 weeks ago
#19
If you are going to cite articles don’t cite ones behind a paywall. If I could vote I’d nay for just that because it means I can’t view the facts.
4
LiberOfLondon
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#20
Report 4 weeks ago
#20
(Original post by Noodlzzz)
Not really weighing in on this, but there as significantly more than average trans children being on the autistic spectrum. Thoughts on this relevance?
I'd like to weigh in on this issue as someone with close personal experience with autism.

One characteristic of autism is being easily led or manipulated, and it could definitely be inferred that children are encouraged to become transgender or do it because their friends do it (ROGD). Mix the two together and you have a dangerous combination.

On the subject of the motion, I will say what I have always said; if you can't have a pint legally, you have no business taking medication with life-changing consequences for what are essentially cosmetic reasons.
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

People at uni: do initiations (like heavy drinking) put you off joining sports societies?

Yes (162)
66.67%
No (81)
33.33%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise