P102 – Ban puberty blockers being given to children Watch

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SankaraInBloom
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Mad_Dog_Graveson)
I think they should ban children from transitioning altogether.
How on earth do you expect gender dysphoria to be discussed and dealt with if there isn't a public option to openly seek help with regards to the transition process?
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Ferrograd
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#42
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#42
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Source?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51022706

"You suffer from an autistic spectrum disorder"
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a_panicked_guy
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#43
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#43
i'm pro-trans but i really think there needs to be a middle ground on this. the polarisation is extreme and austerity, a hugely salient issue and cause of this crisis, is being excluded.

Increase in referrals has been massive, corroborating evidence there is underdiagnosis and unmet neet. but services cannot expand - there is no money. this isn't just a trans issue, new medicine is constantly emerging but austerity fixes things in place. existing patient groups are (comparatively) fine, but if new patient groups emerge, they suffer disproportionately. another example would be rape and sexual assault medicine, many other countries are moving towards medicalising victims of RSA at 'all-in-one' clinics with medical, sexual, mental health, peer support and criminal justice services all being provided under same umbrella rather than by many different services silo-ed off from one another. often these are in one dedicated clinic. but there is no money for this, and other, new patient groups, in the UK.


back to gender. medics understandably concerned that autism, mild/moderate anxiety & depression, and family issues, all need to be addressed in many patients alongside their gender. Hopefully most of the clinicians raising these issues just want to work holistically, treat the whole patient.


but they really can't. GICs can't offer their own treatment for these issues, they have to refer to CAMHS.

but the logic in CAMHS is really different, much more focused on acute cases. Overwhelming majority of gender cases don't have acute MH issues, just a complex web of mild/moderate ones, not exactly a CAMHS priority. CAMHS waiting list are so long it's not feasible - you wait up to 2 years to be seen by a gender clinic, they discover you've actually got some other issues, so they refer you to CAMHS and you wait.. another 6 months to 2 years just for some CBT. you're incredibly unlikely to be seen by a psychiatrist, even if your case as complex as this. And if you're unfortunate enough to hit 18 during this process, you're kicked off both lists and have to start again.

similarly if there are family/safeguarding issues, austerity is massively squeezing social services. what's more, none of these separate organisations has any clear 'lead' role in dealing with a patient who might need help from all three.

finally there is no such thing as gender medicine - no clear training, no real specialisation opportunities. no wonder people feel thrown in at the deep end.

but instead of seeing opportunities to improve, the obvious implication of system-wide dysfunction, and the absolute tragedy of massive unmet need, people just want to ban the issue away. it's tragic.
Last edited by a_panicked_guy; 4 weeks ago
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princetonalec
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#44
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#44
(Original post by a_panicked_guy)
i'm pro-trans but i really think there needs to be a middle ground on this. the polarisation is extreme and austerity, a hugely salient issue and cause of this crisis, is being excluded.

Increase in referrals has been massive, corroborating evidence there is underdiagnosis and unmet neet. but services cannot expand - there is no money. this isn't just a trans issue, new medicine is constantly emerging but austerity fixes things in place. existing patient groups are (comparatively) fine, but if new patient groups emerge, they suffer disproportionately. another example would be rape and sexual assault medicine, many other countries are moving towards medicalising victims of RSA at 'all-in-one' clinics with medical, sexual, mental health, peer support and criminal justice services all being provided under same umbrella rather than by many different services silo-ed off from one another. often these are in one dedicated clinic. but there is no money for this, and other, new patient groups, in the UK.


back to gender. medics understandably concerned that autism, mild/moderate anxiety & depression, and family issues, all need to be addressed in many patients alongside their gender. Hopefully most of the clinicians raising these issues just want to work holistically, treat the whole patient.


but they really can't. GICs can't offer their own treatment for these issues, they have to refer to CAMHS.

but the logic in CAMHS is really different, much more focused on acute cases. Overwhelming majority of gender cases don't have acute MH issues, just a complex web of mild/moderate ones, not exactly a CAMHS priority. CAMHS waiting list are so long it's not feasible - you wait up to 2 years to be seen by a gender clinic, they discover you've actually got some other issues, so they refer you to CAMHS and you wait.. another 6 months to 2 years just for some CBT. you're incredibly unlikely to be seen by a psychiatrist, even if your case as complex as this. And if you're unfortunate enough to hit 18 during this process, you're kicked off both lists and have to start again.

similarly if there are family/safeguarding issues, austerity is massively squeezing social services. what's more, none of these separate organisations has any clear 'lead' role in dealing with a patient who might need help from all three.

finally there is no such thing as gender medicine - no clear training, no real specialisation opportunities. no wonder people feel thrown in at the deep end.

but instead of seeing opportunities to improve, the obvious implication of system-wide dysfunction, and the absolute tragedy of massive unmet need, people just want to ban the issue away. it's tragic.
This is an absolutely fantastic summary of the current ways the system is suffering when trying to help trans patients! I don't want to come across as patronising, i'm just genuinely happy to see people educating themselves so much on these issues!
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Jammy Duel
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#45
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#45
(Original post by SankaraInBloom)
But plainly speaking, in the vast, vast majority of cases where a trans person has transitioned, they are fairly happy with their transition and once they've received the necessary counselling for the remnants of dysphoria-related mental health issues, they get on with their lives, relatively happy and healthy. Increased depression and suicide rates in most cases come from delays in the process or long standing mental issues which were exacerbated by dysphoria.
Except in the vast majority of cases where transition is now complete we are looking back many years, before there was a massive rush on the services, before clinicians felt pressured to give the "correct" diagnosis rather than the correct diagnosis. There will be legal action taken against the NHS this decade due to insufficient safeguards
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princetonalec
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#46
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#46
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Except in the vast majority of cases where transition is now complete we are looking back many years, before there was a massive rush on the services, before clinicians felt pressured to give the "correct" diagnosis rather than the correct diagnosis. There will be legal action taken against the NHS this decade due to insufficient safeguards
Sorry, but could you explain what the first half of your comment means?
If it's about the historic existence of trans people, they did exist. If it's about beginning to see the long term effects of being on hormones, hormone treatment has existed for years, hormone replacement therapy is based on these findings.
I'm just confused about the first part? And I assure you I don't mean to be pedantic, just want to make sure I understand your argument so I don't misrepresent your views.
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CatusStarbright
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#47
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#47
Having done some research into the use and consequences of taking puberty blockers, I have no problem with them being given to under-16s. This is especially so given others in this debate have highlighted the safeguards present during the process and I have also looked into the criteria that must be met before they are given.
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Mad_Dog_Graveson
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#48
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#48
(Original post by SankaraInBloom)
How on earth do you expect gender dysphoria to be discussed and dealt with if there isn't a public option to openly seek help with regards to the transition process?
I think they should get a grip and stop whinging. They’ve got their priorities wrong.
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SacreBlan
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#49
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#49
I thought when you mentioned long-term damage you were talking about the damage to their health and wellbeing... clearly not the case after reading the article.

Nay.
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LiberOfLondon
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Ferrograd)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51022706

"You suffer from an autistic spectrum disorder"
Cheers
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