R51 – Ministerial Report from the SoS for Health and Social Care - Coronavirus Watch

This discussion is closed.
Bailey14
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#41
Report 4 weeks ago
#41
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
I just saw (unconfirmed) report from a tour operator to North Korea claiming that NK has placed a ban on Chinese tour groups during the Lunar New Year period.

In order to calm the public, I suggest that a certain member who believes there's nothing to worry about should pay a visit to Wuhan to prove that it's really no big deal.
Out of interest, where did you see this?
Last edited by Bailey14; 4 weeks ago
0
LiberOfLondon
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#42
Report 4 weeks ago
#42
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
It's the perfect way for Mother China to eliminate poverty?
我没想到
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
I just saw (unconfirmed) report from a tour operator to North Korea claiming that NK has placed a ban on Chinese tour groups during the Lunar New Year period.

In order to calm the public, I suggest that a certain member who believes there's nothing to worry about should pay a visit to Wuhan to prove that it's really no big deal.
Let's have a whip round for the travel fare
0
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#43
Report 4 weeks ago
#43
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And we can add to the list of sources of this being a massive overreaction the World Health Organization who have said:

"WHO does not recommend any specific health measures for travellers. It is generally considered that entry screening offers little benefit, while requiring considerable resources. In case of symptoms suggestive to respiratory illness before, during or after travel, the travellers are encouraged to seek medical attention and share travel history with their health care provider."

While the statement is from 12 days ago the latest update was 11 days ago, clearly the view of WHO is that there is no need to change this guidance.
Then perhaps you will condemn the governments of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, United States, South Korea, Nigeria, India, Singapore, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Australia, Russia, and Italy (and counting) for beginning checks now?

Speaking of scraping the barrel, what's that about quoting a guideline from 11 days ago to desperately support your position that's early crumbling down as the situation gets worse and worse literally every time we talk?

11 days ago, there were 41 confirmed cases. Now? We're approaching 400.

11 days ago, there was 1 confirmed death. Now? We have 6 with reports of the authority not testing for other related deaths to possibly suppress the numbers.

11 days ago, it was mostly in China. Now? Confirmed cases in Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, the US; unconfirmed cases in a handful more countries, including at least 1 British and 1 Australian citizens.

11 days ago, there were no new cases for more than a week. Now? We need to have multiple by the hour.

11 days ago, it was claimed that human-to-human transmissions wouldn't happen (by China)/would be limited (by the WHO). Now? Human-to-human transmissions seem standard now and 2 scores of medics have been infected.

I would urge that since you clearly are not very up-to-date with the information, you should avoid speaking too soon.

Just so you know the WHO is convening an Emergency Committee to ascertain.whether it conditions a public health emergency of international concern and what recommends should be made to manage the outbreak in the next hours. So perhaps you will want to have a sit and wait to see if what you are going to say in the next few hours will be proven false.
1
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#44
Report 4 weeks ago
#44
(Original post by Bailey14)
Out of interest, where did you see this?
It's from a text message sent by the tour operator (which I actually took for my trip to NK, but that's neither here nor there, as I have not been in touch with them myself). Like I said, that's unconfirmed and we're not closing our border anyway. hkg_d7a74f67-0bc4-4c88-a419-2a2ba49a2982-compressed.jpg.jpeg
0
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#45
Report 4 weeks ago
#45
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Let's have a whip round for the travel fare
Doesn't he have a job? I'm sure he can pay for it to prove it. Although who knows what situation we will be seeing in the hours after his flight?
0
Bailey14
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#46
Report 4 weeks ago
#46
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
It's from a text message sent by the tour operator (which I actually took for my trip to NK, but that's neither here nor there, as I have not been in touch with them myself). Like I said, that's unconfirmed and we're not closing our border anyway. hkg_d7a74f67-0bc4-4c88-a419-2a2ba49a2982-compressed.jpg.jpeg
Thankyou!
0
LiberOfLondon
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#47
Report 4 weeks ago
#47
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
Doesn't he have a job? I'm sure he can pay for it to prove it. Although who knows what situation we will be seeing in the hours after his flight?
This is a case of the facts changing, and me changing my opinions.

When the virus had only hit Wuhan, screening does seem like an overreaction. Now, with the virus in America, Japan and South Korea, screening ought to be essential.
Would that our glorious leader in the Libertarian Party would do the same.
0
Jammy Duel
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#48
Report 4 weeks ago
#48
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
Oops. There are officially 6 now. Are you starting to realize how quickly this is developing? Or are you going to hold on to outdated information from an authority that is known for its cover-ups?

People's Daily itself already reported that Wuhan is on lockdown with everyone leaving the city being checked. There's also a notice from their tourism office saying civil servants are. not allowed to leave Wuhan except when a special permission is granted.

Also, TB is screened for immigrants into the UK. In fact, it's not even just screening at the airport. Immigrants from those countries are required to provide a certificate proving that we don't have TB before we could get the visa. But you don't know that, do you?

There were also actions done about the MERS when it was at its peak, but yeah let's act like UK totally ignored it. There is also a difference between worrying about an outbreak from a small country like Sierra Leone and an outbreak in the most populous country on Earth with plenty of tourists and immigrants in the UK.

I can only give you a face palm emoji for your support of inaction against HIV. Congratulations, the approach you support led to 32 million deaths.

It doesn't seem like you actually know anything about how governments responded and are responding to disease control. You have outdated information at every turn. And you couldn't even find the flights between Wuhan and the UK.

And who's talking about shutting down the airports? Oh, you. And only you.
How quickly it's developing? Do you have an accurate list of infected individuals, how this has changed over the last month, if so I think the major health organisations of the world would be interested given the best estimates that have been published have a confidence interval so large as to be meaningless.

The Berlin wall was set up to stop people leaving East Berlin, despite that over 100,000 tried to leave illegally with over 5,000 succeeding, East Berlin: a city with a population one tenth that of Wuhan.

I didn't realise British Citizens required screening to return to the UK, nor certificates of health or visas. I certainly required none of those things when returning from countries with TB prevalence up to two orders of magnitude greater than in the UK.

Regarding MERS you might want to check what that action was, was it screening at airports? Nope, it was only upon admission to hospital, specifically the following:
"The following case definitions are proposed:
PATIENT UNDER INVESTIGATION:
• Any person with severe acute respiratory infection requiring admission to hospital;
o With symptoms of fever (≥38º) or history of fever, and cough
AND
o With clinical or radiological evidence of pneumonia or acute respiratory
distress syndrome (ARDS)
AND
• Not already explained by any other infection or aetiology
AND AT LEAST ONE OF
• History of travel to, or residence in an area where infection with MERS-CoV could
have been acquired in the 14 days before symptom onset
OR
• Close contact during the fourteen days before onset of illness with a confirmed
case of MERS-CoV while the case was symptomatic
OR
• Healthcare worker based in ICU caring for patients with severe acute respiratory
infection, regardless of history of travel or use of PPE
OR
• Part of a cluster of two or more epidemiologically linked cases within a two week
period requiring ICU admission, regardless of history of travel"


In other words there was only testing if you had symptoms severe enough to lead to hospitalisation while having been somewhere you could have reasonably been infected in the previous two weeks. Land at an airport from Saudi Arabia etc? Not interested. That particular report was published in 2015, however the procedure was put in place in 2013:

"From February 1, 2013 to December 31, 2015, returning travellers presenting to hospitals in the Midlands, South West, and North England with respiratory symptoms were actively investigated."

There is a very important thing to remember when you're facepalming: you're talking with the benefit of hindsight, we're now nearly 40 years on from identification and know the outcome, how we would act now knowing what happened is not the same as what we would do if it were to happen today. There is also a bigger problem with your facepalming: as far as we know HIV had been around about 70 years before it was first identified, 10 of which were in the Western Hemisphere and by the time we identified it the disease was incredibly widespread. We also have the number of people believed to be living with HIV continuing to increase to this day despite our understanding and consequently knowing how to limit the spread of the disease, the rate is falling but we're still seeing an estimated 2m new cases every year.

You can keep going but HIV! But SARS! if you want, I'm a but busy with the WHO and their "WHO does not recommend any specific health measures for travellers. It is generally considered that entry screening offers little benefit, while requiring considerable resources. In case of symptoms suggestive to respiratory illness before, during or after travel, the travellers are encouraged to seek medical attention and share travel history with their health care provider." along with "Health authorities should work with travel, transport and tourism sectors to provide travelers with information to reduce the general risk of acute respiratory infections via travel health clinics, travel agencies, conveyance operators and at points of entry."

I'm also not suggesting closing the airports, I'm mocking your overly precautious overreaction, no points of entry no risk.

Given you're paying such close attention, is the old WHO line "To date, there is no reported infection among healthcare workers in China, Thailand or Japan." still holding true or has that been shown to be false in the last 4 days?
0
Jammy Duel
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#49
Report 4 weeks ago
#49
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
Then perhaps you will condemn the governments of Japan, Hong Kong, Macau, United States, South Korea, Nigeria, India, Singapore, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Australia, Russia, and Italy (and counting) for beginning checks now?

Speaking of scraping the barrel, what's that about quoting a guideline from 11 days ago to desperately support your position that's early crumbling down as the situation gets worse and worse literally every time we talk?

11 days ago, there were 41 confirmed cases. Now? We're approaching 400.

11 days ago, there was 1 confirmed death. Now? We have 6 with reports of the authority not testing for other related deaths to possibly suppress the numbers.

11 days ago, it was mostly in China. Now? Confirmed cases in Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, the US; unconfirmed cases in a handful more countries, including at least 1 British and 1 Australian citizens.

11 days ago, there were no new cases for more than a week. Now? We need to have multiple by the hour.

11 days ago, it was claimed that human-to-human transmissions wouldn't happen (by China)/would be limited (by the WHO). Now? Human-to-human transmissions seem standard now and 2 scores of medics have been infected.

I would urge that since you clearly are not very up-to-date with the information, you should avoid speaking too soon.

Just so you know the WHO is convening an Emergency Committee to ascertain.whether it conditions a public health emergency of international concern and what recommends should be made to manage the outbreak in the next hours. So perhaps you will want to have a sit and wait to see if what you are going to say in the next few hours will be proven false.
Actually you'll find it was a guideline from 12 days ago that was updated 11 days ago, a guideline that has not been updated since and is thus the current guidance; the guidance for MERS and SARS hasn't been updated for years, in the case of MERS with more confirmed cases and fatalities since, should we ignore it and screen at airports for MERS?

11 days ago there were 41 confirmed cases, now there are 400, a week after the guidance was issued there were 61 and increase of 50% and despite that what were WHO saying? "No additional cases have been reported since 3 January in China." it's almost as if the new confirmed cases were people that had been quarantined on suspicion.

It's intriguing that you specify there is are unconfirmed cases in Commonwealth citizens, as if the nationalities are relevant.

Who may change their guidance, they may not, but until such a time as the guidance changes the guidance is that screening on arrival offers little benefit, those potentially infected should be well informed, and your general good practice should be observed; until the guidance changed this is overreaction based on the fear that this could be severe, as could absolutely any new disease.
0
04MR17
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#50
Report 4 weeks ago
#50
I'd personally love to see this in division.
0
Bailey14
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#51
Report 4 weeks ago
#51
Baron of Sealand do you intend to push for a division on this matter?
0
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#52
Report 4 weeks ago
#52
(Original post by Bailey14)
Baron of Sealand do you intend to push for a division on this matter?
I don't intend to.
0
SoggyCabbages
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#53
Report 4 weeks ago
#53
Of course I think it is acceptable to do screenings of passengers who have come direct from Wuhan to any airport in the United Kingdom. Regarding places where it isn't a direct flight and they've made one stop or more, I couldn't comment on that logistically.

Although I wouldn't shut down any airports at this time, that seems silly and an overreaction.
0
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#54
Report 4 weeks ago
#54
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Actually you'll find it was a guideline from 12 days ago that was updated 11 days ago, a guideline that has not been updated since and is thus the current guidance; the guidance for MERS and SARS hasn't been updated for years, in the case of MERS with more confirmed cases and fatalities since, should we ignore it and screen at airports for MERS?

11 days ago there were 41 confirmed cases, now there are 400, a week after the guidance was issued there were 61 and increase of 50% and despite that what were WHO saying? "No additional cases have been reported since 3 January in China." it's almost as if the new confirmed cases were people that had been quarantined on suspicion.

It's intriguing that you specify there is are unconfirmed cases in Commonwealth citizens, as if the nationalities are relevant.

Who may change their guidance, they may not, but until such a time as the guidance changes the guidance is that screening on arrival offers little benefit, those potentially infected should be well informed, and your general good practice should be observed; until the guidance changed this is overreaction based on the fear that this could be severe, as could absolutely any new disease.
Yes, we should ignore an outdated guideline based on a situation that had 10% of the current confirmed cases, 20% of the deaths, none of the international infections, a situation between more than a week without new cases versus having some tens of new cases on a daily basis, and when the WHO is going to issue new recommendations after an emergency meeting happening in the next hours. I will also remind you that countries have sovereignty and the WHO does not dictate health practices, as it is in the case for the 13 countries and 2 dependencies who are conducting checks without the WHO urging them to. I will also remind you that the WHO is not infallible, and there have been cases when the government(s) acted ahead of the WHO and successfully contained an epidemic, such as the time when the Hong Kong government slaughtered all the chickens (which partly led to its former Health Secretary later elevated to General Director of the WHO).

I didn't say nationalities are relevant, but that the spread has got to even more countries and territories. Many of them have a lot of contact with the UK.

Do you really enjoy losing arguments so much that you have to put yourself through this?

Jammy: No direct flights between Wuhan and the UK
Hmm...*Google search result showing a flight*
Jammy: Only 3 people died
Hmm...*news now saying 6*
Jammy: No medics have been infected
Hmm...*breaking news: some 20 medics confirmed infections*
Jammy: It's totally overreacting to have basic screening
Hmm...*13 countries and 2 dependencies begin screening*
Jammy: WHO said blah blah blah
WHO: We're having a meeting in hours to update our recommendations

I will not respond to you on this matter any further until at least after the emergency meeting and new recommendations are out. There's simply no point debating you when all you are doing is just desperately holding on to your stance that is quickly falling apart.

If you can show me proof that you have obtained a Chinese visa before the epidemic blows over, I will buy you a plane ticket to Wuhan from the UK (you will buy your return ticket), at a date, time, and airline of my choosing.
0
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#55
Report 4 weeks ago
#55
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Given you're paying such close attention, is the old WHO line "To date, there is no reported infection among healthcare workers in China, Thailand or Japan." still holding true or has that been shown to be false in the last 4 days?
I already told you you are wrong on this.

20 January: https://udn.com/news/story/7333/4299540
14 medics infected

21 January: https://www.thenewslens.com/article/130310
15 medics (+1)

9 hours ago: https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E5%85%...84%9F%E6%9F%93

+5 medics

Chinese government's medical expert, Peking University professor infect: https://www.hk01.com/%E7%A4%BE%E6%9C...8F%AF%E6%8E%A7

+1 medic
0
04MR17
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#56
Report 4 weeks ago
#56
(Original post by Bailey14)
Baron of Sealand do you intend to push for a division on this matter?
Do it, do it, do it. It would be so fun. :dance:
0
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#57
Report 4 weeks ago
#57
(Original post by Bailey14)
Thankyou!
I can now confirm it's legit! North Korea has closed its borders from all foreign tourists (most of whom would be Chinese and I believe all going from China). Reuters confirmed it with another tour operator too.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1ZK1PK
0
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#58
Report 4 weeks ago
#58
(Original post by 04MR17)
Do it, do it, do it. It would be so fun. :dance:
You do realize the Libbers only have 3 votes? And it appears not all of them are voting the same way.
Last edited by Baron of Sealand; 4 weeks ago
0
04MR17
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#59
Report 4 weeks ago
#59
(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
You do realize the Libbers only have 3 votes?
Yes. This has nothing to do with how many votes they have though. I suggest you go back to defending the government's policy.
0
Baron of Sealand
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#60
Report 4 weeks ago
#60
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
This is a case of the facts changing, and me changing my opinions.

When the virus had only hit Wuhan, screening does seem like an overreaction. Now, with the virus in America, Japan and South Korea, screening ought to be essential.
Would that our glorious leader in the Libertarian Party would do the same.
Isn't he your Deputy Leader instead of leader?

He usually faces facts he doesn't like by either ignoring them or in this case, shockingly go pick up something completely irrelevant and outdated. I expect he will ignore my showing him that his claim that no medics have been infected is already outdated. I suspect he's giving me so many notifications right now rather than waiting for the WHO to have their meeting in the next hours first was because he feared he couldn't even hold on to that after the meeting.
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

People at uni: do initiations (like heavy drinking) put you off joining sports societies?

Yes (479)
66.53%
No (241)
33.47%

Watched Threads

View All