B1549 – Employment Tribunal Bill 2020. Watch

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Aph
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Joleee)
i think we're in agreement. :- )

can't see a reason why unfair dismissal shouldn't apply to those who've been employed for 12 months. you indeed can be dismissed (as stated above) just not for unreasonable things like, 'i just don't like you'. like what other reason could there be(?).
Well not really. It depends on what the grounds for unfair dismissal are because I can imagine there being some for which 2 years is reasonable.

Is a personality clash unreasonable? And I’d two years for that unreasonable either? I’d say no.
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quirky editor
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#22
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#22
A year is enough to gain credit towards pension. Aye. Employers shouldn't be able to mistreat people because they have only done 23 months of service. Unfair dismal is wrong, regardless of time served. It can affect future career opportunities. I do not understand why some members of the opposition are so opposed other than for the sake of opposition.
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Jammy Duel
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#23
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#23
(Original post by quirky editor)
A year is enough to gain credit towards pension. Aye. Employers shouldn't be able to mistreat people because they have only done 23 months of service. Unfair dismal is wrong, regardless of time served. It can affect future career opportunities. I do not understand why some members of the opposition are so opposed other than for the sake of opposition.
Eh? What in particular about pensions?
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quirky editor
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Eh? What in particular about pensions?
35 tax years are required to get the full state pension.
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Joleee
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Aph)
Well not really. It depends on what the grounds for unfair dismissal are because I can imagine there being some for which 2 years is reasonable.

Is a personality clash unreasonable? And I’d two years for that unreasonable either? I’d say no.
okay. what reasons would be fair to dismiss someone at 12 months as opposed to 2 years outside the law (as stated above)?
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Aph
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Joleee)
okay. what reasons would be fair to dismiss someone at 12 months as opposed to 2 years outside the law (as stated above)?
Personality is one, tbh there are so many exemptions that I can’t imagine that anything not exempt is particularly important.
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Joleee
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Aph)
Personality is one, tbh there are so many exemptions that I can’t imagine that anything not exempt is particularly important.
are you arguing that personality should be grounds for dismissal?
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Aph
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Joleee)
are you arguing that personality should be grounds for dismissal?
Of course it should be. If your personality makes it impossible to work with you or is disruptive in the work place you should be fired.
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Joleee
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Aph)
Of course it should be. If your personality makes it impossible to work with you or is disruptive in the work place you should be fired.
lol. i fundamentally disagree with you. personality has nothing to do with the ability to perform the job. you're hired to perform the job - not to be well liked.
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Aph
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Joleee)
lol. i fundamentally disagree with you. personality has nothing to do with the ability to perform the job. you're hired to perform the job - not to be well liked.
Then you clearly have never experienced the real world.
I work in retail with people who kick off every time something changes, be that a form, the layout of the shop or even the people who come in and are regularly rude to customers, but because of employment rights we can’t sack them as it might be illegal.

I’ve also had a lecturer at university who will not talk to you unless you call them Dr x, will actually shout at students who don’t call them doctor and has made such a reptation for themselves that no one wants to go to them for help for fear of upsetting them. As such they are completely ineffective at a core part of their job but that’s entirely down to personality.
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Joleee
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Aph)
Then you clearly have never experienced the real world.
I work in retail with people who kick off every time something changes, be that a form, the layout of the shop or even the people who come in and are regularly rude to customers, but because of employment rights we can’t sack them as it might be illegal.

I’ve also had a lecturer at university who will not talk to you unless you call them Dr x, will actually shout at students who don’t call them doctor and has made such a reptation for themselves that no one wants to go to them for help for fear of upsetting them. As such they are completely ineffective at a core part of their job but that’s entirely down to personality.
part of the job in retail is to be a retail assistant, in that you provide customer service. if someone cannot provide customer service, they should be sacked - that abides by the law, specifically the 'inability to do your job'. sacking them is perfectly legal.

second argument, again, is an inability to do their job. assuming you think lecturers should be approachable by job definition. the law covers all that stuff. the only issue is the timeline, which this bill proposes should be reduced to 12 months.
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Aph
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Joleee)
part of the job in retail is to be a retail assistant, in that you provide customer service. if someone cannot provide customer service, they should be sacked - that abides by the law, specifically the 'inability to do your job'. sacking them is perfectly legal.

second argument, again, is an inability to do their job. assuming you think lecturers should be approachable by job definition. the law covers all that stuff. the only issue is the timeline, which this bill proposes should be reduced to 12 months.
You just said that personality doesn’t impact your ability to perform your job though...

Anyway, you have yet to demonstrate an example of where a person was unfairly dismissed but wasn’t covered by an exception.
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Joleee
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Aph)
You just said that personality doesn’t impact your ability to perform your job though...

Anyway, you have yet to demonstrate an example of where a person was unfairly dismissed but wasn’t covered by an exception.
no, i'm saying that 'i just don't like you based on your personality' isn't grounds for dismissal. performance is everything and is already covered by the law. you think the opposite which is crazy imho.
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Aph
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Joleee)
no, i'm saying that 'i just don't like you based on your personality' isn't grounds for dismissal. performance is everything and is already covered by the law. you think the opposite which is crazy imho.
How do you define performance?
Say an office worker decides they want to stop showering so they can get to work 30 minutes earlier every day. Their performance goes up because they are working more but everyone around them goes down because of the smell.

The point is that performance isn’t about pure numbers or what you do, that’s a very individualistic view point. A person’s performance is also about how their personalities mesh together with others to improve moral, how their behaviours impact on office culture and numerous other unmeasurable things.
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Jammy Duel
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Joleee)
lol. i fundamentally disagree with you. personality has nothing to do with the ability to perform the job. you're hired to perform the job - not to be well liked.
Clearly you haven't had to work with a total arse then

Incompatible personalities can very easily reduce productivity vs compatible personalities
Last edited by Jammy Duel; 4 weeks ago
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Joleee
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Aph)
How do you define performance?
Say an office worker decides they want to stop showering so they can get to work 30 minutes earlier every day. Their performance goes up because they are working more but everyone around them goes down because of the smell.

The point is that performance isn’t about pure numbers or what you do, that’s a very individualistic view point. A person’s performance is also about how their personalities mesh together with others to improve moral, how their behaviours impact on office culture and numerous other unmeasurable things.
performance, like the the 'ability to do their job'. whatever that requires of them.

if you are 'unlikable' because or your personality it isn't grounds for termination. not if your'e employed for 2 years or 12 months, it's the same. i still don't understand your argument.
Last edited by Joleee; 4 weeks ago
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Joleee
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#37
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#37
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Clearly you haven't had to work with a total arse then

Incompatible personalities can very easily reduce productivity vs compatible personalities
been working since i was 15 and i know how it is. i suppport the rights of *******s to work.
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Aph
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Joleee)
performance, like the the 'ability to do their job'. whatever that requires of them.

if you are 'unlikable' because or your personality it isn't grounds for termination. not if your'e employed for 2 years or 12 months, it's the same. i still don't understand your argument.
Personality isn’t protected. Currently an employer has 2 years to work out if an employees personality fits the organisation. That’s not unreasonable.
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Joleee
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Aph)
Personality isn’t protected. Currently an employer has 2 years to work out if an employees personality fits the organisation. That’s not unreasonable.
i think you are greatly confused. you also cannot dismiss an employee before or after two years for having a 'personalty' problem. that's literally illegal.

but you want to argue personality - independent of performance - should be grounds for dismissal. again you are crazy to me and not thinking straight.
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Aph
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#40
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#40
(Original post by Joleee)
i think you are greatly confused. you also cannot dismiss an employee before or after two years for having a 'personalty' problem. that's literally illegal.

but you want to argue personality - independent of performance - should be grounds for dismissal. again you are crazy to me and not thinking straight.
citation please

Because individual performance isn't as important as team performance.
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