Church of England still homophobic

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WoopWoo
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#61
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One of the points of religion is that it is believed by its followers to be the word of God.

Thus, in the view of the church it is not up to a priest or pastor to pick and choose religious beliefs, and in doing so go against what they believe to be the command of God, based off of what suits them and makes them happy.

Therefore it is perfectly fine for the Church, and its many millions of followers, to stick to the Christian belief that marriage is a ritual performed between man and woman. In no way does refusing to alter ones religious values based off of popular demand or societal changes constitute homophobia, and it is equally your duty to respect the religious beliefs of others as it is the duty of a Christian to respect your value as a human being, and by holding to their traditional views on gay marriage/ gay intercourse, they are in no way discriminating against you or refusing to accept that members of the LGBT community should be treated equally with respect and kindness.
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Nuttyy
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(Original post by WoopWoo)
One of the points of religion is that it is believed by its followers to be the word of God.

Thus, in the view of the church it is not up to a priest or pastor to pick and choose religious beliefs, and in doing so go against what they believe to be the command of God, based off of what suits them and makes them happy.

Therefore it is perfectly fine for the Church, and its many millions of followers, to stick to the Christian belief that marriage is a ritual performed between man and woman. In no way does refusing to alter ones religious values based off of popular demand or societal changes constitute homophobia, and it is equally your duty to respect the religious beliefs of others as it is the duty of a Christian to respect your value as a human being, and by holding to their traditional views on gay marriage/ gay intercourse, they are in no way discriminating against you or refusing to accept that members of the LGBT community should be treated equally with respect or love.

Billions* but 👏👏👏👏
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WoopWoo
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#63
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(Original post by Nuttyy)
Billions* but 👏👏👏👏
Thanks (btw was gonna write billions but changed it because was unsure how many christians actively follow the church's teachings)
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londonmyst
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(Original post by Sir Cumference)
I didn’t mention Wikipedia. If you use Google you can find a variety of definitions from reputable sources. If you were writing an essay, which source would you use to back up your claim that homophobia means the irrational fear of gay people? If your claim is only based on the word “phobia” then you’ll get 0/20.

This is all so silly - you know what the accepted definition is and I don’t know why you’re arguing.
This is a debate thread, if you decide that you don't want to continue participating in debates you know what to do.
On social media you are guaranteed to encounter alternative viewpoints to your own and will never be able to persuade everyone to agree with you.
If you want someone you will be able to train to echo all your opinions and definitions, get yourself a pet parrot keen on human speech repetition.

My essays only relate to theology or legal argument/analysis.
I use the "irrational fear" based sources & definitions of Dr. George Weinberg, the american man who coined the term "homophobia", and also cite the verbatim accepted definitions/case precedents of serving members of the usa judiciary who are qualified for trial inclusion.
I am deliberately not quoting any of them because I will not facilitate the use of the 'gay panic defence'.
Nor provide a route for a savvy inexperienced lawyer to use: either for the purpose of obtaining a dismissal of usa hate crime charges on behalf of a gay bashing hate criminal or personally to join the network of very successful bible belt lawyers who make their living keeping violent gay bashing liars out of prison.
If you are genuinely interested in the 'fear and irrationality perspective', you can access Dr. George Weinberg's journal
articles or buy his books. :ciao:
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londonmyst
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(Original post by WoopWoo)
One of the points of religion is that it is believed by its followers to be the word of God.

Thus, in the view of the church it is not up to a priest or pastor to pick and choose religious beliefs, and in doing so go against what they believe to be the command of God, based off of what suits them and makes them happy.

Therefore it is perfectly fine for the Church, and its many millions of followers, to stick to the Christian belief that marriage is a ritual performed between man and woman. In no way does refusing to alter ones religious values based off of popular demand or societal changes constitute homophobia, and it is equally your duty to respect the religious beliefs of others as it is the duty of a Christian to respect your value as a human being, and by holding to their traditional views on gay marriage/ gay intercourse, they are in no way discriminating against you or refusing to accept that members of the LGBT community should be treated equally with respect and kindness.
The infallible, inerrant perception of religious scripture as the unchanged word of the almighty is a hallmark of the fundamentalist approach to religion.
There are many other approaches to religion: liberal, reform, conservative, orthodox and ultra-traditionalist.
This applies to the abrahamic religions and non-abrahamic religions alike.
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Sir Cumference
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(Original post by londonmyst)
This is a debate thread, if you decide that you don't want to continue participating in debates you know what to do.
On social media you are guaranteed to encounter alternative viewpoints to your own and will never be able to persuade everyone to agree with you.
If you want someone you will be able to train to echo all your opinions and definitions, get yourself a pet parrot keen on human speech repetition.

My essays only relate to theology or legal argument/analysis.
I use the "irrational fear" based sources & definitions of Dr. George Weinberg, the american man who coined the term "homophobia", and also cite the verbatim accepted definitions/case precedents of serving members of the usa judiciary who are qualified for trial inclusion.
I am deliberately not quoting any of them because I will not facilitate the use of the 'gay panic defence'.
Nor provide a route for a savvy inexperienced lawyer to use: either for the purpose of obtaining a dismissal of usa hate crime charges on behalf of a gay bashing hate criminal or personally to join the network of very successful bible belt lawyers who make their living keeping violent gay bashing liars out of prison.
If you are genuinely interested in the 'fear and irrationality perspective', you can access Dr. George Weinberg's journal
articles or buy his books. :ciao:
Why does it matter to you who coined a term and what it meant originally? Surely it only matters what the accepted definition is now? Here are some examples of definitions changing:

An "antisemite" originally meant someone hostile towards Semitic people, not just Jews
A "girl" originally meant a child of either sex
"Naughty" people originally meant people who had naught i.e. were poor

So do you still accept the original definition of these words? If not, why is homophobia different?
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laurawatt
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#67
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(Original post by OAds)
It's not really a surprise though is it? I mean the CofE are unlikely to change their views suddenly having believed what 'God' says about marriage only being heterosexual since the bible was written. I totally believe they should change their views but considering they are sticking to what their religious book says that's unlikely to happen anytime soon...
Just because some CofE believers do not support gay sexual relations, it doesn't mean that all of us don't. In my (CofE) opinion, people should be able to marry etc. whoever they want. Our church allows anyone in and makes sure everyone feels welcomed, not just the heterosexuals.
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username1539513
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#68
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(Original post by Kitten in boots)
As someone who does not like organised religion, I strongly encourage the Bishops at the Church of England to continue issuing such advice. It is the kind of moralising that results in dwindling congregations and empty churches.
Pretty much is the case already. Virtually no 16-25 year olds even go to church
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Sir Cumference
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#69
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(Original post by WoopWoo)
Remember boys and girls that equality isn't a one way thing - the religious beliefs of the church hold as much value as the opposing views of the LBGT community.
Religious beliefs hold value to those who believe in the religion. Why should anyone else value them?
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watershower
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#70
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okay i get why the church is anti-LGBT. i don’t expect them to change their views on that just to pander to our growing mainstream liberal media. but i don’t understand their view on civil partnerships? why can’t they bless a mixed sex couple going into civil partnership? they might not take a big step forward but they need to take a step forward. jeez, the importance of church is dying among young people and they want to pull stuff like this
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#71
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(Original post by Nuttyy)
Would I be classed as 'homophobic' if I didn't agree with gay marriage?

If so, why is this nation allowing the Leader of the House, Rt Hon Jacob Rees-Mogg MP to hold such a position in government? He doesn't agree with gay marriage as he's quite openly said. He is a devout Catholic and abides by their rulings.

If you answer yes to the question I posed above, you're calling over half the population 'homophobic', considering 56% of the world are either followers of Christianity or Islam, both of which condemn gay marriage.

If a minute proportion of the world is Vegan, it doesnt mean the entire world must agree to or adopt the vegan diet lmfao. Why should I be flogged for saying Vegan diets are dangerous and shouldn't be followed for Health purposes?
If you opposed equal rights for LGBT people then yes, you would be homophobic.

As for the final line, you fail to make any sort of sensible parallel. Vegans existing doesn't mean you have to be vegan, nor does people being gay mean you have to be. Don't like veganism? don't be a vegan. Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry a person of the same gender as you - problem solved. However, people who oppose gay marriage don't stop there - they actually attempt to force their beliefs onto everyone else (which is what you're claiming comes from the LGBTQ community in a solid example of projection), they're not gay and wouldn't want to marry someone of the same gender, so no-one should be allowed to either.
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laurawatt
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#72
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Our church gets 300+ every Sunday and at least 60% of them would be 0-25, with about 50 of them probably fitting into your 16-25 year old bracket. That’s one church.
A different type of CofE is appearing and attracting people, young, vibrant, family oriented churches - think guitars, drums, electric guitars etc. These are the types of churches that attract people now religion just has to (and parts are) adapting with the times
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username1539513
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#73
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(Original post by laurawatt)
Our church gets 300+ every Sunday and at least 60% of them would be 0-25, with about 50 of them probably fitting into your 16-25 year old bracket. That’s one church.
A different type of CofE is appearing and attracting people, young, vibrant, family oriented churches - think guitars, drums, electric guitars etc. These are the types of churches that attract people now religion just has to (and parts are) adapting with the times
That’s cool; must be a really nice church!
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1st superstar
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#74
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(Original post by londonmyst)
actually the meaning of 'phobia' does matter.
In many criminal cases, it has been the difference between a judicial/jury finding of innocence or guilt at the criminal trial of a gay basher on hate crime charges. All confusion and dishonesty only benefits the worst of bad apples.

I'm not in the habit of relying on google or wikipedia content.
If you are and are happy to cite such information on uni essays or professional assignments- good luck.
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Napp
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#75
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Not sure i see what makes this newsworthy? Religions dont like gays, its not exactly an earth shattering announcement.
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Nuttyy
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
If you opposed equal rights for LGBT people then yes, you would be homophobic.

As for the final line, you fail to make any sort of sensible parallel. Vegans existing doesn't mean you have to be vegan, nor does people being gay mean you have to be. Don't like veganism? don't be a vegan. Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry a person of the same gender as you - problem solved. However, people who oppose gay marriage don't stop there - they actually attempt to force their beliefs onto everyone else (which is what you're claiming comes from the LGBTQ community in a solid example of projection), they're not gay and wouldn't want to marry someone of the same gender, so no-one should be allowed to either.
So I don't have the right to dislike Vegans? I don't have a right to say no one should follow a vegan diet, unless their religion compels them to?

If you're so adament on drawing 'final lines', say with your chest out that all Christians and Muslims are 'homophobes'? Because Christians and Muslims follow Christianity and Islam respectively, and both religions strictly prohibit gay marriage. Don't be fooled by those saying 'orthodox', 'Conservative' etc. Those are people who are picking and choosing from their true religion. Do you expect people to shake off their true belief because of what you and society believe is correct? Lmao, if you expect more than half the population of the world to conform to your beliefs and drop their religion's rulings, then you are truly delusional.
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WoopWoo
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(Original post by Sir Cumference)
Religious beliefs hold value to those who believe in the religion. Why should anyone else value them?
Isn't the same true with all beliefs, in that they hold value only to those who believe in them? Thus using your argument, this thread is in the wrong for trying to impose his beliefs of gay marriage being acceptable on the church. As you say, they're his beliefs but "why should anyone else value them?".
Last edited by WoopWoo; 8 months ago
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#78
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(Original post by Nuttyy)
So I don't have the right to dislike Vegans? I don't have a right to say no one should follow a vegan diet, unless their religion compels them to?

If you're so adament on drawing 'final lines', say with your chest out that all Christians and Muslims are 'homophobes'? Because Christians and Muslims follow Christianity and Islam respectively, and both religions strictly prohibit gay marriage. Don't be fooled by those saying 'orthodox', 'Conservative' etc. Those are people who are picking and choosing from their true religion. Do you expect people to shake off their true belief because of what you and society believe is correct? Lmao, if you expect more than half the population of the world to conform to your beliefs and drop their religion's rulings, then you are truly delusional.
You don't have the right to discriminate against vegans based on their diet, deny them rights or insist they are wrong to be vegan, just as you don't have the right to deny gay people rights, to harass them for their sexuality/gender identity or discriminate against them...

Not every christian or muslim is homophobic because not every christian or muslim disagrees with gay rights. Hell, most of the stuff that's taken to be anti homosexuality in christianity is from Paul, and he was just a weird prude, not the core message of Jesus. Jesus' core message being one of tolerance and acceptance of your fellow man (except bankers, man was big into whipping them and rightly so).
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Nuttyy
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
You don't have the right to discriminate against vegans based on their diet, deny them rights or insist they are wrong to be vegan, just as you don't have the right to deny gay people rights, to harass them for their sexuality/gender identity or discriminate against them...

Not every christian or muslim is homophobic because not every christian or muslim disagrees with gay rights. Hell, most of the stuff that's taken to be anti homosexuality in christianity is from Paul, and he was just a weird prude, not the core message of Jesus. Jesus' core message being one of tolerance and acceptance of your fellow man (except bankers, man was big into whipping them and rightly so).

They're not good Christians or Muslims if they disagree with their religion 💁🏼*♂️. Both religions are very specific on their stance on gay marriages, no point Muslims or Christians trying to delude themselves to fit into social norms.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#80
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(Original post by WoopWoo)
Some of these people can try to disguise their hogwash as equality but what they're actually trying to get is superiority.
Really nailing the whole "to the privileged, equality feels like oppression" deal there.
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