Reject the propaganda 50p Watch

imlikeahermit
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Aurano)
Do your research into business and trade and you'll start to understand that the EU isn't going to cease trade with one of its closest, wealthiest and largest consumers because we left the Union. A lot of remainers tend to get overly emotional and bitter about leaving the EU, but the leaders of those countries aren't sulking teenagers, they're seasoned politicians who understand that trading with the UK is necessary and healthy for both parties.

Despite not voting in the referendum, I initially supported remaining in the EU, but after thinking about the long term possibilities of leaving the EU I started to I feel quite positive about UK's future.
Do you genuinely think that there are any short-medium term economic benefits of leaving the EU?
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Aurano
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#62
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#62
(Original post by QE2)
You said that "Germany, France and Italy will all make deals very fast with the UK."
That fundamentally misunderstands the essential nature of the EU. Germany, France and Italy cannot make any deals with the UK.

Of course the EU isn't going to cease trading with the UK, but they will force the UK to accept terms that may not be what your average Leave voter had in mind. Already it is accepted that the UK will allow EU fleets access to UK waters in order to be allowed access to EU markets for UK financial services. So much for all those fishermen who voted Leave to "Take Back Our Waters!"


So what do you see as the benefits of no longer being a member of the EU? And how do these offset the disadvantages?
No, the countries decide on the individual trade agreements, they just have to abide by EU regulations. Deals will already be under negotiation behind closed doors, especially with Germany whose car industry relies largely on the UK consumer market. Not to mention the pharmaceutical industry which UK was one largest importers of EU goods. You really think those countries want to abandon their share of a wealthy pharma sector?

Also, what makes you think that they will force the UK to accept their terms? You say that as if the UK needs the EU but the EU doesn't need the UK; therefore, we must somehow accept poor deals to trade in the EU. The UK is one of the largest and wealthiest markets in the world, and it's particularly skilled in the service sector. Not to mention that we're developing a close trading partnership with the United States, so technically we have more diplomatic clout to swing deals our way.

European fleets have always been able to enter UK waters following announcement or via trade agreements. They're our allies. And we also want the EU and other non-EU countries using our financial services. That's the whole point! Taking back the waters was about the fishing industry, and after leaving the EU, unless a deal is struct, EU fishermen won't be allowed to fish in our waters.

Leaving the EU allows us to control certain trade and the growth of sectors. Economies are stagnating across Europe because business and wealth is being concentrated in certain sectors or countries outside of Europe, for example, buying parts abroad for cheaper can be good for one British company, but when it puts five other British companies out of business who originally part of the supply chain then it becomes economically unviable. Balancing out our economy is priority one, and it's important to do this considering the tech sector is basically dominating everything. Then there is immigration, which has been a disaster the last five to ten years. We want skilled workers who can innovate and give us back our competitive edge. We don't want a family of eight from some religious rogue state bringing zero skills to the country and putting more pressure on the NHS, housing, and benefits system. As "moral" as you might consider helping people in need, it's not how States survive. You have to be shrewd and ruthless sometimes. Communication between the intelligence services will still remain strong to provide security, but we can now also use intelligence as a leverage tool. Through UK would share vital intelligence because it's morally sound, we aren't obligated to do so.

There are lots of reasons that benefit the UK. Of course, UK will go through a rough few years, but in the long term we will be better off outside of the EU.
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Aurano
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#63
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#63
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Do you genuinely think that there are any short-medium term economic benefits of leaving the EU?
I don't think, I know.
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imlikeahermit
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Aurano)
I don't think, I know.
Get them listed then. What are these short-medium term benefits?
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Doones
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#65
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#65
(Original post by Aurano)
Germany, France and Italy will all make deals very fast with the UK.
Except they can't make individual deals. It has to be a UK deal with the entire EU27.

that's the point...
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paub
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#66
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#66
son will be as he collects them. now anyone got the first attempted one.
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Fullofsurprises
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Doones)
Except they can't make individual deals. It has to be a UK deal with the entire EU27.

that's the point...
Any final deal also has to pass through national and even regional parliaments, so tiny little areas of Europe the size of postage stamps potentially have a veto over any deal.

Given recent history of EU trade negotiations, it's more likely than not that we won't be able to organise an acceptable deal, because the Tories want to cherry pick and because their leadership visibly has no negotiation skills.
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Aurano
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#68
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#68
(Original post by Doones)
Except they can't make individual deals. It has to be a UK deal with the entire EU27.

that's the point...
No. It's a deal with the countries that desire trade within the EU which has to be signed off by EU parlaiment, but the trades themselves are negotiated between individual states. The EU has to accept that otherwise it'll risk many countries abandoning the Union. Factors such as logistics and supply chain, exchange rates, trade policy, supply and demand and consumer strength will dictate the trade agreements, not the EU parliament.
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QE2
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Aurano)
No, the countries decide on the individual trade agreements, they just have to abide by EU regulations. Deals will already be under negotiation behind closed doors, especially with Germany whose car industry relies largely on the UK consumer market. Not to mention the pharmaceutical industry which UK was one largest importers of EU goods. You really think those countries want to abandon their share of a wealthy pharma sector?
The rules for any trade deal involving EU member states are set by the EU. Individual nations cannot negotiate their own trade deals. Remember, this was a fundamental reason for leaving the EU - the inability to negotiate deals independent of the EU.

Also, what makes you think that they will force the UK to accept their terms?
Erm, because they hold the stronger negotiating position.

You say that as if the UK needs the EU but the EU doesn't need the UK;
The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

therefore, we must somehow accept poor deals to trade in the EU.
Not "poor", just not the "amazing" deals promised by the Leave campaign. They will likely involve closer ties to EU rules than was promised.

The UK is one of the largest and wealthiest markets in the world,
No it isn't. Not compared to the major trading blocs - the biggest of which we have just left! Can't believe you just made that argument. You must be trolling!

and it's particularly skilled in the service sector.
Which needs unrestricted, low tariff access to large markets. Something we have just given up.

Not to mention that we're developing a close trading partnership with the United States,
We've always had one. But now, the US is in a stronger negotiating position than it was because we've left the EU.
Imagine wanting to sell your house. If the buyer knows they are the only serious bidder, they will offer a lower price. Or if you are buying a house, you wouldn't tell the seller that theirs is the only house you are looking at.

so technically we have more diplomatic clout to swing deals our way.
:confused:

European fleets have always been able to enter UK waters following announcement or via trade agreements.
Yes - because we were in the EU. And we had access to theirs. I can't believe I'm actually bothering with this.

And we also want the EU and other non-EU countries using our financial services. That's the whole point! Taking back the waters was about the fishing industry, and after leaving the EU, unless a deal is struct, EU fishermen won't be allowed to fish in our waters.
The deal is as good as done. EU fleets will still have access to UK waters, betraying the promises made to the UK fishermen. Also, the vast majority of the UK fleet's catch is exported to the EU, so it depends on getting a deal. Not a good bargaining position.

Leaving the EU allows us to control certain trade and the growth of sectors.
I didn't expect that level of detail, TBH.

buying parts abroad for cheaper can be good for one British company, but when it puts five other British companies out of business who originally part of the supply chain then it becomes economically unviable.
So how will leaving the EU stop that?

Balancing out our economy is priority one, and it's important to do this considering the tech sector is basically dominating everything.
How does leaving the EU affect this?

Then there is immigration, which has been a disaster the last five to ten years. We want skilled workers who can innovate and give us back our competitive edge. We don't want a family of eight from some religious rogue state bringing zero skills to the country and putting more pressure on the NHS, housing, and benefits system.
Oh dear. I wondered how long it would be before you played the race "immigration" card.
You do realise that EU migrants are more likely to pay tax and less likely to claim benefits that UK nationals? Immigrants make a net financial contribution to the UK economy.

As "moral" as you might consider helping people in need, it's not how States survive. You have to be shrewd and ruthless sometimes.
So you think leaving the EU will mean the end of the Welfare State? lol

Communication between the intelligence services will still remain strong to provide security, but we can now also use intelligence as a leverage tool. Through UK would share vital intelligence because it's morally sound, we aren't obligated to do so.
No idea what you are on about now.

There are lots of reasons that benefit the UK. Of course, UK will go through a rough few years, but in the long term we will be better off outside of the EU.
Well, you haven't been able to provide any, and seem to have a rather loose grasp of the issues involved.
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QE2
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#70
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#70
(Original post by Aurano)
I don't think, I know.
Hold on, you just said... "UK will go through a rough few years, but in the long term we will be better off".
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Aurano
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#71
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#71
That's a very ignorant and naive post, and most of it completely wrong.

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QE2
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#72
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#72
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Get them listed then. What are these short-medium term benefits?
They haven't a clue what they are on about. They just said to me...
"UK will go through a rough few years, but in the long term we will be better off"
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QE2
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#73
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#73
(Original post by Aurano)
No. It's a deal with the countries that desire trade within the EU which has to be signed off by EU parlaiment, but the trades themselves are negotiated between individual states. The EU has to accept that otherwise it'll risk many countries abandoning the Union. Factors such as logistics and supply chain, exchange rates, trade policy, supply and demand and consumer strength will dictate the trade agreements, not the EU parliament.
Shh... grown-ups are talking now.
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Aurano
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#74
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#74
You sound like the typical postmodern neomarxist type who's bitterness has the better of them.
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imlikeahermit
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#75
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#75
(Original post by Doones)
Except they can't make individual deals. It has to be a UK deal with the entire EU27.

that's the point...
He's been sadly brainwashed by Farage and Co who insist we have countries lining up at 10 Downing Street to strike a deal, yet, there's never anyone there?!
(Original post by Aurano)
No. It's a deal with the countries that desire trade within the EU which has to be signed off by EU parlaiment, but the trades themselves are negotiated between individual states. The EU has to accept that otherwise it'll risk many countries abandoning the Union. Factors such as logistics and supply chain, exchange rates, trade policy, supply and demand and consumer strength will dictate the trade agreements, not the EU parliament.
Absolute tosh. France, Germany any other EU member country cannot make trade deals with singular countries by themselves. It must be a collective agreement. Secondly, the EU would do well not to accept this. Many countries will not abandon the union. It's as simple as that. I have said this before and I'll say it again. We as a country are not special. We do not produce goods or services that cannot be obtained elsewhere by other countries. We may, at the moment, be a major financial centre, but I can quickly see that going south. Countries will not be tripping over themselves to get to us. If you believe that you need to be committed.
(Original post by QE2)
They haven't a clue what they are on about. They just said to me...
"UK will go through a rough few years, but in the long term we will be better off"
They literally haven't. I'm past trying to fight to remain now. I just want to see this go tits up. I want Nissan to close, I want all this manufacturing too fail, I want job losses. I want these idiots that have been sold down the river by the elites (who will be the only one who benefit) to actually see what they have done. They've made their bed, they can lie in it.
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Aurano
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#76
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#76
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
He's been sadly brainwashed by Farage and Co who insist we have countries lining up at 10 Downing Street to strike a deal, yet, there's never anyone there?!

Absolute tosh. France, Germany any other EU member country cannot make trade deals with singular countries by themselves. It must be a collective agreement. Secondly, the EU would do well not to accept this. Many countries will not abandon the union. It's as simple as that. I have said this before and I'll say it again. We as a country are not special. We do not produce goods or services that cannot be obtained elsewhere by other countries. We may, at the moment, be a major financial centre, but I can quickly see that going south. Countries will not be tripping over themselves to get to us. If you believe that you need to be committed.
First of all, I can't stand Farage or Boris Johnson. I study business therefore I go by my understanding of it.

Secondly, you obviously didn't read what I wrote. The EU signs off on a trade deals between individual countries depending on whether it negatively affects other states within the union and whether it aligns with EU policy, the individual states, however, negotiate between themselves. What exactly is it you think politicians do on state visits? Shoot the breeze over tea and biscuits? They debate on how they can improve trade and usually build a political plan to get it passed through EU bureaucracy. It doesn't seem you understand the intricacies of trade and politics in the real world besides the sanitised drivel you hear on the regional news.

If individual state actors in the EU feel like they're being neglected through trade positions they will lose faith in the EU. Many countries already are losing faith. I wouldn't be surprised if Italy call a referendum in the next couple of years. The economies are stagnating because of the bureaucracy of EU trade policy.

Your understanding of business and trade seems limited by the idea that we're "not special" as a country. It's not about being special, it's about certain economic and political factors. As I originally wrote: Factors such as logistics and supply chain, exchange rates, trade policy, supply and demand, consumer strength, and ideological standing. These are what dictates a countries desire to trade good and use our services. Do you think China make the highest quality components? Or do you think people buy components from China because it's cheap and convenient? Why do you think we have seen an increase in Italian procurement of British services? Because Britain is special? Or because the exchange rates and reputation of British service sector?

As I originally said, stop stamping your feet like a moody, naive teenager and understand that things aren't as bad as they seem. The economy will be turbulent for a few years because of shifts in trade negotiations, but in the long term the UK will be much better off. If you look at 2019s trade statistics on the ONS website you'll notice the UK has already procured a lot of necessities from the US and Canada.
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QE2
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#77
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#77
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I just want to see this go tits up. I want these idiots that have been sold down the river by the elites (who will be the only one who benefit) to actually see what they have done.
Yeah, pretty much.

They've sh*t their bed, they can lie in it.
Fixed that for ya!
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QE2
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#78
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#78
(Original post by Aurano)
You sound like the typical postmodern neomarxist type who's bitterness has the better of them.
I have been Poed, haven't I?
Nice work. Had me going for a bit there.
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Burton Bridge
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#79
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#79
(Original post by QE2)
Shh... grown-ups are talking now.
You'd better get out then
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1st superstar
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#80
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#80
(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The government's new Brexit propaganda 50p is entering circulation on Friday. It bears the inscription "Peace, prosperity and friendship with all nations". As a Twitter user points out on #Brexit50p, "this is from a government whose own analysis says Brexit undermines UK security and economic prosperity and who compared the nations of Europe to the nazis during negotiations."
https://twitter.com/hashtag/Brexit50p?src=hashtag_click

Attachment 876472

Apart from this sounding more like a UN coin, it is clearly intended as government propaganda. They were going to release one some time ago, but it was cancelled at the last minute at a cost to the taxpayer of more than £3m. Presumably this new piece of replacement Leave propaganda is similarly priced.

Lots of people are going to insist on not having them in change. Join us in rejecting the new right wing Tory propaganda 50p.

David Schneider paraphrases Orwell:

"Ignorance is strength"
"Freedom is slavery"
"Peace is leaving the biggest peace project in history"
"Prosperity is slashing growth, ****ing business & torching jobs"
"Friendship to all nations is cutting yourself off from & abusing 27 of them"
I want that coin tbh
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