Wales to bring in smacking ban. Watch

DiddyDec
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Bio 7)
I wouldn't describe it as fear.
You fear being caused pain so you don't that same action again.

(Original post by Capitalist_Lamb)
Have you ever heard of the police? They are the parents to adults and discipline them with physical harm if they are not doing things right. I also believe there is a strong difference between child abuse and just disciplining a child. It's sad to think that sometimes it's better to be cruel at times to be kind, disciplining in the now to help them later. I neither agree or disagree with the ruling at the time but just putting out some opinions.
The police avoid doing physical harm unless absolutely necessary and proportionate in the situation.
Have you ever heard of reasonable force?

I will never support violence or cruelty against children, there are plenty of options to discipline a child without resorting to violence.
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Capitalist_Lamb
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#62
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#62
(Original post by DiddyDecAlt)
You fear being caused pain so you don't that same action again.


The police avoid doing physical harm unless absolutely necessary and proportionate in the situation.
Have you ever heard of reasonable force?

I will never support violence or cruelty against children, there are plenty of options to discipline a child without resorting to violence.
I agree with you. I don't support children being harmed but there is a difference between a smack on the bottom and a punch in the face.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Capitalist_Lamb)
I agree with you. I don't support children being harmed but there is a difference between a smack on the bottom and a punch in the face.
Of course there is a difference but the fact remains both are violent and both can cause lasting psychological damage.

Why risk damaging your child when it could be avoided?
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Sammylou40
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(Original post by DiddyDecAlt)
You fear being caused pain so you don't that same action again.


The police avoid doing physical harm unless absolutely necessary and proportionate in the situation.
Have you ever heard of reasonable force?
The majority of parents discipline in the same way.

It’s difficult to be so black and white unless you are a parent
My sons have never been hit. Fortunately for me they were well behaved.
I was smacked as a child. Never by my father but my mum was rather fond of a slap here and there.
I do not believe it has caused me harm. I suffer no consequences.
What concerns me more are the alternative methods those parents will employ instead.
One of my younger neighbours is proud to say she’s never hit her children. I’ve never seen her do it. But the way she gets down and screams vile language in their faces has to have far more lasting effects than a light slap would
Parents aren’t allowed to shout either.
I got told off when one of mine at infant school ran off into the road. He was grabbed and brought back and I shouted at him. I was dragged into the office and told that shouting was highly inappropriate.
Did it stop me? No. There are occasions when raising my voice was warranted. Did I do it again at school? No. I waited til I was out of earshot.

There are some truly bad parents around. And what concerns me most is what will go on that no one can see anymore
Last edited by Sammylou40; 3 weeks ago
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WoodlandSorcerer
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(Original post by Bio 7)
You both seem to want to say every little slap is being done with full strength to leave behind a mark. A small slap can easily be used in some scenarios without causing any damage and harming people. I got slapped a few times when I was young and then I started apologising when I had to, or I stopped doing something wrong. It only happened a few times but those few times it was deserved for bad behaviour.
I said nothing about it being full strength and leaving a mark. I said that a slap is striking a child with an intent to cause pain and damage, regardless of how minor. Therefore it is violence, full stop. Of course a slap causes damage, you are literally hitting someone. If it didn't cause any damage then there is literally no purpose to it at all. The reasoning behind a slap is simple and clear: cause pain and humiliation to a child so they're discouraged from repeating the action out of fear of being caused more pain. You can dress it up any way you like but this is the motivation behind any form of corporal punishment. You can get children to apologise and stop bad behaviour without hitting them, obviously.

As somebody else mentioned, if a stranger hit your child, even if were a "light slap" 99% of parents would be outraged and possibly think of pressing charges or reporting it, so why is it OK for you to do it to your own child?

I don’t see why you keep expanding this out to beating adults and sexually abusing children, that is not what I have ever said I agree with and just makes your posts look like they have no thought behind them. Who could possibly say abusing a baby is ok, if that’s how you are going to respond then this exchange is over as you aren’t going to understand what I’ve tried to describe.
I used that example to show the absurdity of your own logic. Just because something may be inferred to not cause significant damage in the long run is no reason to do it, especially when it comes to actions like hitting and sexual abuse. A rude comment someone made in school about me may not cause me lasting psychological damage, so does that make rude comments and insults OK?
Last edited by WoodlandSorcerer; 3 weeks ago
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Sammylou40)
The majority of parents discipline in the same way.

It’s difficult to be so black and white unless you are a parent
My sons have never been hit. Fortunately for me they were well behaved.
I was smacked as a child. Never by my father but my mum was rather fond of a slap here and there.
I do not believe it has caused me harm. I suffer no consequences.
What concerns me more are the alternative methods those parents will employ instead.
One of my younger neighbours is proud to say she’s never hit her children. I’ve never seen her do it. But the way she gets down and screams vile language in their faces has to have far more lasting effects than a light slap would
Studies have shown time and time again that violent physical punishment can have lasting damage, that is not being "black and white" that is a proven outcome backed by evidence.

The alternative to non violent should not be verbally abusive, that is taking a step once again in the wrong direction.

Violence and abuse should never be employed when raising children, I would think that is common sense. But common sense isn't common.
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Capitalist_Lamb
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#67
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(Original post by DiddyDecAlt)
Of course there is a difference but the fact remains both are violent and both can cause lasting psychological damage.

Why risk damaging your child when it could be avoided?
The thing is you can also cause lasting psychological damage by not disciplining your child by giving them the idea that these things are not punishable and that they can do what they want free from punishment. Yes, you can discipline a child by telling them off. Do you think the parents actually like 'spanking' their kids and get enjoyment out of it as I personally don't? It would most likely hurt the parents as much as the child but they know that they are doing it for them 'being cruel in the moment to be kind'.
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Sammylou40
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(Original post by DiddyDecAlt)
Studies have shown time and time again that violent physical punishment can have lasting damage, that is not being "black and white" that is a proven outcome backed by evidence.

The alternative to non violent should not be verbally abusive, that is taking a step once again in the wrong direction.

Violence and abuse should never be employed when raising children, I would think that is common sense. But common sense isn't common.
Amongst most parents it is. It’s tough and I, and most people I know, understand the boundaries.
I also understand that some parents feel that a light slap is appropriate in some situations. Regardless of wether I did it or not
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WoodlandSorcerer
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(Original post by Capitalist_Lamb)
The thing is you can also cause lasting psychological damage by not disciplining your child by giving them the idea that these things are not punishable and that they can do what they want free from punishment. Yes, you can discipline a child by telling them off. Do you think the parents actually like 'spanking' their kids and get enjoyment out of it as I personally don't? It would most likely hurt the parents as much as the child but they know that they are doing it for them 'being cruel in the moment to be kind'.
But no one here is saying that children shouldn't be disciplined. Refusing to smack your children does not mean you're letting them get away with everything or giving them the message that unacceptable behaviours are OK, that's a false dichotomy. There are a million and one ways you can get your children to see something is wrong without striking them, or are you implying that when someone is not longer hit they lose the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and cannot recognise the consequences of their actions?
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Capitalist_Lamb)
The thing is you can also cause lasting psychological damage by not disciplining your child by giving them the idea that these things are not punishable and that they can do what they want free from punishment. Yes, you can discipline a child by telling them off. Do you think the parents actually like 'spanking' their kids and get enjoyment out of it as I personally don't? It would most likely hurt the parents as much as the child but they know that they are doing it for them 'being cruel in the moment to be kind'.
I'm not advocating no punishment, there seems to be this idea that if you don't hit your children they aren't being punished. This is utter nonsense, there are plenty of options for non-violent punishment that is proven effective and most importantly safe.

Why risk damaging your child when it isn't necessary?
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Capitalist_Lamb
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(Original post by WoodlandSorcerer)
But no one here is saying that children shouldn't be disciplined. Refusing to smack your children does not mean you're letting them get away with everything or giving them the message that unacceptable behaviours are OK, that's a false dichotomy. There are a million and one ways you can get your children to see something is wrong without striking them, or are you implying that when someone is not longer hit they lose the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and cannot recognise the consequences of their actions?
I don't understand why you are comparing adults to children. If an adult assaulted someone they would be prosecuted and expect to get hit back, they understand their actions. Children are not yet fully developed and so they are a lot harder to make them understand right from wrong. I literally said in the above statement that you can obviously discipline your child in different ways. My dad is a kind, loving, caring and supportive man and would verbally discipline me when I was misbehaving (of-course) but he also knew that sometimes he had to do something he didn't like to help me for the future. He taught me to respect and made me understand right from wrong and I am grateful for him disciplining me as a child as I know that he, although he didn't like it, had to be cruel to be kind. Just so you know, my dad was not abusive and abusive parents are obviously disgusting but what my dad did to me was not abuse, it was discipline.
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Capitalist_Lamb
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(Original post by DiddyDecAlt)
I'm not advocating no punishment, there seems to be this idea that if you don't hit your children they aren't being punished. This is utter nonsense, there are plenty of options for non-violent punishment that is proven effective and most importantly safe.

Why risk damaging your child when it isn't necessary?
Who are you to say that a smack on the bottom scares children? Mental abuse can be just as, or if not more damaging to children than physical as they are at such a young age and easy to manipulate. Saying this also shows that yes, you can teach your children to learn right from wrong through other ways but sometimes a smack on the bum is needed to set an example. I see children running around these days doing what they like with no fear of punishment.
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WoodlandSorcerer
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#73
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(Original post by Capitalist_Lamb)
I don't understand why you are comparing adults to children. If an adult assaulted someone they would be prosecuted and expect to get hit back, they understand their actions. Children are not yet fully developed and so they are a lot harder to make them understand right from wrong. I literally said in the above statement that you can obviously discipline your child in different ways. My dad is a kind, loving, caring and supportive man and would verbally discipline me when I was misbehaving (of-course) but he also knew that sometimes he had to do something he didn't like to help me for the future. He taught me to respect and made me understand right from wrong and I am grateful for him disciplining me as a child as I know that he, although he didn't like it, had to be cruel to be kind. Just so you know, my dad was not abusive and abusive parents are obviously disgusting but what my dad did to me was not abuse, it was discipline.
And nothing about children being underdeveloped merits them being struck! I already said there many ways you can discipline a child without resorting to violence, such as grounding, taking away their phone, console, naughty step and so on and so forth. You have provided no evidence whatsoever that hitting is any more effective than these and we know that striking has the potential to cause physical and psychological damage. You don't have to be physically cruel to be kind, just because it may have worked on some people doesn't mean it's necessary. I too was hit lightly as a child but I recognise that I would not have turned into a rude delinquent if the slapping had been spared. You are making no reasonable argument at all for why hitting is more effective and beneficial than non-violent punishments.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Capitalist_Lamb)
Who are you to say that a smack on the bottom scares children? Mental abuse can be just as, or if not more damaging to children than physical as they are at such a young age and easy to manipulate. Saying this also shows that yes, you can teach your children to learn right from wrong through other ways but sometimes a smack on the bum is needed to set an example. I see children running around these days doing what they like with no fear of punishment.
Don't take my word for it, but will you listen to Pediatricians?

Why are you bringing up mental abuse? Abuse is wrong (I shouldn't need to state that).

What example do you sent? To me it says that violence is acceptable, yet we teach children not to be violent. Seems conflicting to me.

And what you do want to do with those children, be violent?
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Capitalist_Lamb
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(Original post by WoodlandSorcerer)
And nothing about children being underdeveloped merits them being struck! I already said there many ways you can discipline a child without resorting to violence, such as grounding, taking away their phone, console, naughty step and so on and so forth. You have provided no evidence whatsoever that hitting is any more effective than these and we know that striking has the potential to cause physical and psychological damage. You don't have to be physically cruel to be kind, just because it may have worked on some people doesn't mean it's necessary. I too was hit lightly as a child but I recognise that I would not have turned into a rude delinquent if the slapping had been spared. You are making no reasonable argument at all for why hitting is more effective and beneficial than non-violent punishments.
First of you didn't provide any examples, you just said "millions of ways to discipline a child"
Second, you say I have provided no evidence that physical discipline doesn't work, or at least doesn't work as good as other punishments but you have also provided no evidence to state the opposite. Also, I'm not an expert and I said this. I am not providing a factual report, just simply putting an opinion out there. Why do I have to provide evidence for an opinion? I have never said that spanking a child is better than other discipline methods, I said the opposite in fact saying that I think they both work.
Third. As you said, you were hit lightly as a child, would you of wanted your parents to potentially be prosecuted for smacking you lightly, I sure know I wouldn't.
Overall I was simply stating an opinion from both sides, that's all. I am not an advocate for abuse of children, just trying to show that sometimes parents discipline their children and it hurts them too, that's all.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Sammylou40)
There are some truly bad parents around. And what concerns me most is what will go on that no one can see anymore
This doesn't make any sense.

If they know what they are doing is wrong then they will do it in private.
If they don't know any better they will do it in public.

Banning smacking children isn't going to change that. Does smacking children in public make it better?
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Sammylou40
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(Original post by Capitalist_Lamb)
Who are you to say that a smack on the bottom scares children? Mental abuse can be just as, or if not more damaging to children than physical as they are at such a young age and easy to manipulate. Saying this also shows that yes, you can teach your children to learn right from wrong through other ways but sometimes a smack on the bum is needed to set an example. I see children running around these days doing what they like with no fear of punishment.
PRSOM
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WoodlandSorcerer
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(Original post by Capitalist_Lamb)
First of you didn't provide any examples, you just said "millions of ways to discipline a child"
I did provide some examples in the subsequent post and it doesn't take more than a few seconds to think of ways that you can punish a child without hitting them. A 2 second Google search can help you with that.

Second, you say I have provided no evidence that physical discipline doesn't work, or at least doesn't work as good as other punishments but you have also provided no evidence to state the opposite. Also, I'm not an expert and I said this. I am not providing a factual report, just simply putting an opinion out there. Why do I have to provide evidence for an opinion? I have never said that spanking a child is better than other discipline methods, I said the opposite in fact saying that I think they both work.
Third. As you said, you were hit lightly as a child, would you of wanted your parents to potentially be prosecuted for smacking you lightly, I sure know I wouldn't.
Overall I was simply stating an opinion from both sides, that's all. I am not an advocate for abuse of children, just trying to show that sometimes parents discipline their children and it hurts them too, that's all.
People in this thread have already linked data and studies that show physical violence can have damaging, long-lasting effects so yes, evidence has been provided, it seems that you just don't want to look at it. Also, I never said physical discipline doesn't work, it can in the sense of making your child terrified of you and cowering them into behaving, but my point is that this is clearly not the healthiest way to do so and that there is significant risk for long-term damage, so why do it?

What I personally want isn't that relevant. There are abused wives who keep returning to their abusive husbands and don't want to press charges, but that doesn't make the abuse OK. The relationships here are very complex, you can still dislike and fear your parents striking you without being brave enough or wanting to report them and possibly irreparably damaging any future relationship, but that is not at all an argument for the abuse being acceptable. Also, how is an underage child (in most cases) going to even consider or be able to think about how they're going to come up against an adult or utilise the power of the law? That's precisely why we have child protection laws in place that don't depend on the child's personal wishes, Stockholm Syndrome and so on. There was nothing that me being slapped as a child achieved that could not have been done using non-violent methods.
Last edited by WoodlandSorcerer; 3 weeks ago
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Sammylou40
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#79
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(Original post by DiddyDecAlt)
This doesn't make any sense.

If they know what they are doing is wrong then they will do it in private.
If they don't know any better they will do it in public.

Banning smacking children isn't going to change that. Does smacking children in public make it better?
Not just referring to smacking diddy. If a parent believes that the type of punishment they mete out is correct then they will carry on doing it. You can tell parents they cannot smack. They may stop. They may not.
Psychological abuse causes far more damage than a quick light smack
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Capitalist_Lamb
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(Original post by DiddyDecAlt)
Don't take my word for it, but will you listen to Pediatricians?

Why are you bringing up mental abuse? Abuse is wrong (I shouldn't need to state that).

What example do you sent? To me it says that violence is acceptable, yet we teach children not to be violent. Seems conflicting to me.

And what you do want to do with those children, be violent?
By mental abuse, I meant verbal punishments. Of course, abuse is wrong, I never said it wasn't. What I said was discipline and abuse are different things. Sooner or later it will be prosecutable for verbally punishing your children as you are casing them distress. If physical punishment is prosecutable (I mean a smack on the bottom, not a punch in the face), then verbal might be next.

Take this case for example. An Australian man was being prosecuted for smashing his daughter's phone. You can read the article yourself but the TL;DR version is that she misbehaved and he threated to smash her phone. She then misbehaved again I believe and he followed through on his actions, destroying her phone. He apparently dragged her by her wrist and there was a little bit of an altercation but the dad showed a different side. The judge dismissed the case as being a waste of everybody's time.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nds-court.html
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