28th state of EU or 51st state of USA Watch

AnonymousNoMore
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Ferrograd)
Actually, China has the strongest military in the world.

America is declining, as is most of the west. It makes far more sense to align with Russia and China. Russia is on our doorstep, also has nukes, plays a massive role in fighting ISIS, China is also a major economic power.
Interesting that you don't like the US, but the better option is Russia and China? With their current systems, both basically dictatorships with tyrannical leaders. Also both countries human rights laws and treatment of their people. Come on, surely you would prefer to be allied with the US, our society and values are much more aligned with the US. Also you say that the west is declining, have you read about the predictions of the china's economy?


US defence yearly - 598.5 bn
China defence yearly - 146 bn

Come on
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PotatoFruit
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#22
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#22
The question is strange, would you rather be a country in a union of countries or be a state in one country? Obviously the first option will always be more appealing
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#23
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The UK, still influential though waning, is still regarded as the lapdog of the USA, so some might say the ship sailed a long time ago
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BlueIndigoViolet
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Ferrograd)
Actually, China has the strongest military in the world.

America is declining, as is most of the west. It makes far more sense to align with Russia and China. Russia is on our doorstep, also has nukes, plays a massive role in fighting ISIS, China is also a major economic power.
Would sooner support an invasion of the UK by the EU or USA than remain aligned to China/Russia.
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Drewski
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#25
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
I'm being theoretical; we had a trade deal with the EU; all 28 countries and of course many others that we didn't have to negotiate with. We got trade deals, and we got representation in the EU for political and economic cooperation. If we do a trade deal in the USA, it will just be the UK and the USA, the USA will have the upper hand etc.

Only other way I can see a fairer trade deal working is if we join NAFTA.
The two things aren't comparable though.

We didn't get a trade deal with the EU, we were in the EU. Our seat at the table wasn't because of a trade deal.

You're mixing metaphors to a confusing degree.
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Drewski
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Ferrograd)
Actually, China has the strongest military in the world.
Biggest =/= strongest.

It doesn't have a blue water navy, it doesn't have expeditionary air power. It's nowhere near being the strongest.
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Burton Bridge
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:facepalm:get a grip mate, learn what a trade deal actually is and dont write huge sections of complexed history before it's happened!
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 2 weeks ago
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Ferrograd
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
:facepalm:get a grip mate, learn what a trade deal actually is and dont write huge sections of complexed history before it's happened!
Know what it is.
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Burton Bridge
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Ferrograd)
Know what it is.
Well if that's the case you will know that a trade deal with America isnt even remotely comparable to membership of a political union! We aren't going to a be a part of the American political system like we was in the European union !

You are believing wild and hysterical remainer lies, get a grip!
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watershower
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#30
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The article is quite old, that doesn’t mean it’s still in talks.
Also that still doesn’t disprove my point that the entire NHS will not be privatised. That is very extreme
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Ferrograd
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#31
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(Original post by watershower)
The article is quite old, that doesn’t mean it’s still in talks.
Also that still doesn’t disprove my point that the entire NHS will not be privatised. That is very extreme
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...och-ambassador
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Ferrograd
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#32
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#32
(Original post by AnonymousNoMore)
Interesting that you don't like the US, but the better option is Russia and China? With their current systems, both basically dictatorships with tyrannical leaders. Also both countries human rights laws and treatment of their people. Come on, surely you would prefer to be allied with the US, our society and values are much more aligned with the US. Also you say that the west is declining, have you read about the predictions of the china's economy?


US defence yearly - 598.5 bn
China defence yearly - 146 bn

Come on
We are in reality nothing like the USA. The USA is about individualism and enterprise, the UK is based around a welfare state and despite not being socialist, we have socialist institutions like national healthcare which countries like the USA don't understand. The USA shouldn't throw stones from glass houses given its reputation on human rights. China is investing across the globe, albeit some say this is just imperialism and colonising african countries, whereas the USA is almost isolationist. It's an ocean away,, Russia is much closer. Although undoubtedly we are closest to the western european social democracy that was the EU than either russia or usa.
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Ferrograd
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Well if that's the case you will know that a trade deal with America isnt even remotely comparable to membership of a political union! We aren't going to a be a part of the American political system like we was in the European union !

You are believing wild and hysterical remainer lies, get a grip!
And you're believing wild and hysterical Leaver Lies, like thinking you will be able to control immigration from outside of the EU, and that we'll somehow be totally fine if we have no deal with the EU.
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AnonymousNoMore
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#34
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
We are in reality nothing like the USA. The USA is about individualism and enterprise, the UK is based around a welfare state and despite not being socialist, we have socialist institutions like national healthcare which countries like the USA don't understand. The USA shouldn't throw stones from glass houses given its reputation on human rights. China is investing across the globe, albeit some say this is just imperialism and colonising african countries, whereas the USA is almost isolationist. It's an ocean away,, Russia is much closer. Although undoubtedly we are closest to the western european social democracy that was the EU than either russia or usa.
We are definately much closer to the US then China. And you mentioned socialist like institutions thst separate us from the US, they also have welfare and food stamps, they also have police and fire services. The only difference is the health care system.

I strongly believe our system is closer to the US then China, and I would rather us ally with them.

Also you mention human rights, but you cannot compare the abuse in the two countries. In China there is institutionalised sweat shops. The only problem the US have is a low minimum wage and the border situation with the camps for illegal immigrants, which you cannot even compare to the Chinese camps of Muslims. Also you seem to be forgetting about tianamen Square. Stop being silly, the US is a lot closer to our society then China.
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Ferrograd
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#35
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#35
(Original post by AnonymousNoMore)
We are definately much closer to the US then China. And you mentioned socialist like institutions thst separate us from the US, they also have welfare and food stamps, they also have police and fire services. The only difference is the health care system.

I strongly believe our system is closer to the US then China, and I would rather us ally with them.

Also you mention human rights, but you cannot compare the abuse in the two countries. In China there is institutionalised sweat shops. The only problem the US have is a low minimum wage and the border situation with the camps for illegal immigrants, which you cannot even compare to the Chinese camps of Muslims. Also you seem to be forgetting about tianamen Square. Stop being silly, the US is a lot closer to our society then China.
Look up the Bonus Arm y March 1932 incident, the Battle of Blair Mountain, not to mention how the USA planned to stage terrorist attacks on its own citizens in order to drum up support for a war against Cuba, speaking of which, the USA supporting Far right, murdering dictators like the Junta in Greece and Nicraragua in order to subvert democracy, 11th September 1973 in Chilea, support for the Taliban and Saudi Arabia, supporting Franco....

Oh, and depending what side of the UK you measure From, China is basically as close as the USA, would be closer by about 200 miles. We are on the same continent (Eurasia), not seperated by an ocean.
Last edited by Ferrograd; 2 weeks ago
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AnonymousNoMore
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#36
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
Look up the Bonus Arm y March 1932 incident, the Battle of Blair Mountain, not to mention how the USA planned to stage terrorist attacks on its own citizens in order to drum up support for a war against Cuba, speaking of which, the USA supporting Far right, murdering dictators like the Junta in Greece and Nicraragua in order to subvert democracy, 11th September 1973 in Chilea, support for the Taliban and Saudi Arabia, supporting Franco....

Oh, and depending what side of the UK you measure From, China is basically as close as the USA, would be closer by about 200 miles. We are on the same continent (Eurasia), not seperated by an ocean.
Oh wow us imperialism nothing new here, still much closer to their society then China. And I'm not talking graphical location.
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Ferrograd
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#37
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#37
(Original post by AnonymousNoMore)
Oh wow us imperialism nothing new here, still much closer to their society then China. And I'm not talking graphical location.
So what about Russia? Russia and the UK were allies once. Russia has nukes, so we can rely on them. They are in Europe, on our doorstep, fight ISIS and could be great friends of ours. The iron curtain has gone.
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AnonymousNoMore
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#38
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
So what about Russia? Russia and the UK were allies once. Russia has nukes, so we can rely on them. They are in Europe, on our doorstep, fight ISIS and could be great friends of ours. The iron curtain has gone.
Russia are lead by a toletarian leader who literally committed an assassination on British territory. You forgetting about the nerve agent attack? They have shown time and time again we cannot trust them.
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Ferrograd
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#39
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(Original post by AnonymousNoMore)
Russia are lead by a toletarian leader who literally committed an assassination on British territory. You forgetting about the nerve agent attack? They have shown time and time again we cannot trust them.
They were rogue agents. I'm sure Britain has committed assasinations on foreign territory. America committed assasinations of their own peope ahem Huey Long, Martin Luther King.

Russia has elections.

Trump has shown us time and time again we cannot trust them with their reckless policies in the middle east, on the environemtn and in international trade.
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AnonymousNoMore
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
They were rogue agents. I'm sure Britain has committed assasinations on foreign territory. America committed assasinations of their own peope ahem Huey Long, Martin Luther King.

Russia has elections.

Trump has shown us time and time again we cannot trust them with their reckless policies in the middle east, on the environemtn and in international trade
I trust America much more then Russia. Come on dude look at the crimean crisis that was caused and they treated to turn off the whole of Europe's natural gas if we got involved, very trustworthy. You speak of the US involvement in the middle east, are you forgetting about Russian envolvement, and their constant siding with Turkey. Oh and you just dismissed the assassination by saying it was rogue agents, what a nice little story for him to say.

Russia has election, not free from election tampering, of which there was actual evidence unlike the US elections. And internal trade? If you're talking about the Chinese tariffs I don't think either one of us completely understands what's going on and so cannot make a statement about it. And there's experts on both sides of it saying it's good/ bad so I'll remain neutral on thst.


And I agree thst his policies on the environment are not ideal but I'd still take them as an ally over russia/ China.
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