Should Scotland break apart? Watch

barnetlad
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Indyref 2 is not going to happen with the current Westminster government. Even with Mr Johnson insulting one of the Krankies by comparing her to Nicola Sturgeon.

I personally favour Scottish independence.
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Em.-.
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(Original post by Quady)
A small sum like ONE MILLION POUNDS?
No, for a single person it’s £475,000 (including the house) which can be earned through hard work alone. Even a million could be earned by someone’s hard work. I won’t be inheriting anything above the threshold so it doesn’t personally affect me but I don’t like the idea of the government taking dead people’s money. I think when it comes to multimillionaires the right thing to do would be to give some to those in need but the government taking it away to spend it on whatever doesn’t seem right to me and often the people with a lot of money have businesses which create jobs. I just don’t think it should be forced upon anyone.
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Quady
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(Original post by Em.-.)
No, for a single person it’s £475,000 (including the house) which can be earned through hard work alone. Even a million could be earned by someone’s hard work. I won’t be inheriting anything above the threshold so it doesn’t personally affect me but I don’t like the idea of the government taking dead people’s money. I think when it comes to multimillionaires the right thing to do would be to give some to those in need but the government taking it away to spend it on whatever doesn’t seem right to me and often the people with a lot of money have businesses which create jobs. I just don’t think it should be forced upon anyone.
So youd rather higher taxes while you're alive?
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Em.-.
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(Original post by Quady)
So youd rather higher taxes while you're alive?
I think the extremely rich should be taxed more, and more enforcement should be put in place to stop “offshore” accounts. I understand imposing inheritance tax on the very wealthy since although they could have worked hard for their money, there reaches a point where they have so much that it’s really beyond necessary. Perhaps a cap on how much money is allowed to be inherited . I just feel that the threshold is too low and it hasn’t increased to reflect inflation. Especially that around 40% is taken beyond this threshold, which is too high imo, possibly switching to bands would help, so that when it comes to a far more than necessary amount of money, most of it is being taken in tax. I just don’t like the idea of people with a lot, but not too much, money who have saved it rather than spend it (on holidays, cars etc) to help their family out, having it taken from them.

*Also with businesses which could benefit from inheritance, they will have to pay tax. So again, stopping offshore accounts could certainly help.
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The last stupid thread you created was closed, and various posts removed which made various delusional renainers look stupid (#surprise) you have now tried to carry it on, on a different thread.

I think that might be close to what ColinDent was getting at in the below post
Hello Mr Burton,

The last thread I created attracted a lot of views and hundreds of responses .

I assume it was closed as people started debating each other and in a heated way. Nothing to do with the original post . I think I got over 130 replies in less than a day. If they had it open for a few more days it would have exceeded 500 I believe .

Now as i said to you there are a lot of stupid people in the leave side. Some hace claimed that there are stupids on the remain side. Yes there are but in the biblical proportions of the leave side.

However there are great differences between stupids in both sides. The leave side has by far the most stupids.
And in addition the stupids in the remain side didn't vote to damage the national interest and didn't vote to damage their personal interest .

Those on the leave side did damage the national interest.

Now I understand you are a leave voter but you are getting aggitated as you see yourself in my descriptions. I cannot do anything about that.

As for politics they are always dividing never uniting anyone. The claims fir unity are just ludicrous.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Hello Mr Burton,

The last thread I created attracted a lot of views and hundreds of responses .

I assume it was closed as people started debating each other and in a heated way. Nothing to do with the original post . I think I got over 130 replies in less than a day. If they had it open for a few more days it would have exceeded 500 I believe .

Now as i said to you there are a lot of stupid people in the leave side. Some hace claimed that there are stupids on the remain side. Yes there are but in the biblical proportions of the leave side.

However there are great differences between stupids in both sides. The leave side has by far the most stupids.
And in addition the stupids in the remain side didn't vote to damage the national interest and didn't vote to damage their personal interest .

Those on the leave side did damage the national interest.

Now I understand you are a leave voter but you are getting aggitated as you see yourself in my descriptions. I cannot do anything about that.

As for politics they are always dividing never uniting anyone. The claims fir unity are just ludicrous.
No not really, there was nothing heated about it, I obviously got insulted by the usual tribe of extreme remainers, but most of those are still up. I actually had quite a good time last night making the usual suspects look rarther silly

No I dont believe there is huge evidence of more stupidity on one side or the other, the fact it was so easy to lead the hard core remainers into a conrer where they highlighted their own stupidity from their own words, your thread was a testament to this. Anyway, I dont think it is particularly helpful to cause divisions and belittle people based on how they voted alone. There are clearly intellectually challenged, bigoted people on all sides in politics, not just brexit but political ideals in general.

There is no concrete evidence that those on the leave side damaged the national interest. That may well be your opionion but its certainly not unequivocal fact. I find it quite amusing that in your previous thread, on a exceptionally pro remain forum, it was still the hard core deluded remainers that needed the help of some mysterious power which magically removed posts that highlighted the gaping desperation in their argument. Amazing they struggled against such dumb thicko leave voters dont you think?

I dont see myself in anything you type or anything to do with you me duck. I find you quite amusing, you are a username on a pro remain forum, spreading bigoted pro remain views, but still managed to get the majority of posts calling you a troll and suggesting you are likely to be the stupid one! Quite an achievement - well done :rofl:

I dont think calls for unity are ludicrous at all, if you could manage to gain some objective intelligence and maturity in your political debates, you would see that most decent people across the political spectrum want similar results, it's the method of achieving it that's the subject of disagreement.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 week ago
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Lucifer323
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Mr Burton,

You seem to think facts are depending on someone's understanding of what facts are .

The ideas that we don't know whether Scotland would be better as independent country and in the EU or whether Brexiteers are stupid or even smart, are all originating from the same circles that were always originated, right wing and ultra right wing in nature .

If you are for example as English or Scottish voter who thinks that the Government of Boris Johnson , Priti Patel and Reeg Moss, will protect and promote the interests of the working class then you must really stupid indeed.

Likewise when you think that Brexit will be a success and every other country will line up to make the best possible deals with the UK.

The post is about Scottish Independence.

Question to you : what is more likely to happen, EU Break Up, or UK Break up what do you think guys?
As for the unity, there is no yniry when it comes to politics.

As for the bigots, charlatans, racists, xenophobic, and stupids, there is no better example than those with hard core right wing and ultra right wing values and principles.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The last stupid thread you created was closed, and various posts removed which made various delusional renainers look stupid (#surprise) you have now tried to carry it on, on a different thread.

I think that might be close to what ColinDent was getting at in the below post
Yes, that is correct.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Mr Burton,

You seem to think facts are depending on someone's understanding of what facts are .

The ideas that we don't know whether Scotland would be better as independent country and in the EU or whether Brexiteers are stupid or even smart, are all originating from the same circles that were always originated, right wing and ultra right wing in nature .

If you are for example as English or Scottish voter who thinks that the Government of Boris Johnson , Priti Patel and Reeg Moss, will protect and promote the interests of the working class then you must really stupid indeed.

Likewise when you think that Brexit will be a success and every other country will line up to make the best possible deals with the UK.

The post is about Scottish Independence.

Question to you : what is more likely to happen, EU Break Up, or UK Break up what do you think guys?
As for the unity, there is no yniry when it comes to politics.

As for the bigots, charlatans, racists, xenophobic, and stupids, there is no better example than those with hard core right wing and ultra right wing values and principles.
There are so many fatal gapping wounds in that post, I hardly know where to start. Firstly, Facts are facts, it doesn't matter what someone's understanding of what facts are, not sure what you are getting at?

Your second sentence is just plain nonsense!
1) An independent Scotland doesn't have automatic right to EU membership, In fact far from it.
2) If Scotland voted to leave the UK in indy ref, they would of also left the EU.
3) leaving a Neoliberal EU isnt a left vs right issue. In fact, traditional socialists tend to be against neoliberal unions!
4) if you think leaving the EU is solely quote, originated from a right wing and ultra right wing, how do you explain it was the Tories that took us in and the Socialist left that vehemently opposed!

You appear to be exceptionally limited in your political knowledge!

Your third and forth paragraph, mate you are as bad at typing as I am anyway I get gist of it, its nonsense but I get what you mean. Do you think that maybe people might have voted Conservative, not because they like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson but they saw a Tory government at the least worst option? After Voting Labour in 2017 and then openly watched us, literally ignore our promises on the single biggest issue, Brexit! May came back with a deal that was almost exactly what Labour claimed they wanted, but they opposed it, blocked it, stopped it, belittled their northern voters and then wondered why the simple messages, johnson and co put forward rang a chime in their hearts.
Also, I dont say this rudely however you seem to be quite uniformed, you do realise we couldn't make any trade deals elsewhere until the 31st of jan 2020, dont you?

I've already explained unity, a tory voter isnt the enemy of a labour voter! As for your question, at the moment I'd say the EU. But I do think if Scotland her indy ref 2 the SNP will take Scotland out of both unions, and freefall you guys away from the benifits you currently have over England, free prescriptions for just one example.

Your last paragraph is too stupid to reply too.
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 week ago
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Lucifer323
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Hello Mr Burton,

Let's see what your misunderstandings are in relation to what I say and write as you seem to have misunderstood a lot of things and misinterpreted your own way.

I am starting with the claim that opinions are presented as matters of fact in the leave campaign. Examples are many. The oppression of the EU is one of them. We will be better out than in, more money for the NHS and Education .All but all are unqualified claims, including all others that I haven't mentioned.

The Brexit campaign was based on a pack of lies, together with large amounts of populism, disinformation, deception, and of course stupidity and idiocy.

Next point: We know very well that Scottish independence doesn't imply automatic membership in the EU. Where do I claim that? Scotland,if they had a vote it will be after we have left the EU.

Negotiations with Scotland in case they would like to join the EU will be very different as the Scots voted to remain in the EU by a good majority. It is to be assumed that the Scots will get some privileges when they join (if they join which is very likely).

You claim the EU is Neoliberal altogether which is not true. Some countries employ Neoliberal policies. And if you can see the irony of this, the country with the most Neoliberal policies is the UK by far!! Only the presence of Boris Johnson in a governemt of right wing and ultra wing ministers is more than enough.

You make a lot of unqualified claims however. I cannot answer all. The oppresion of the EU is one of my favourites.

(*) Let's say this again: If A implies B then B doesn't necessarily imply A. That's for your part 4) argument . Yes we went in under a Conservative Government thanks a large number of labour voters who supported the common market. A very good majority of labour voted at that time for in. And of course a good minority of the Tory voted for in. Likewise the majority of labour voted remain, however much smaller proportion, and again a smaller minority of Tories.

It was always like that i.e the majority of labour in favour of the common market and EU and vice versa for the Conservatives. The fact that we went in when a Tory Government was in power diesntd mean that the Brexit ideas were not originated in the right wing and ultra right wing circles . Most Brexiteers are right wing politicians which is not a coincidence and the other way around in all other parties. Remember Ed Miliband? To his credit his words were:
I don't believe in a EU referendum as it is against the national interest. Even hard line tories said exactly the same such as John Major who doesn't have much belief in the abilities of this government as it seems..

Concluding

Should Scotland break apart from the UK?

Absolutely


Is Brexit something to be cheerful?

I think we should be banging our heads in the wall that we let a group of Charlatans & Morons to play with the future of the country at all levels
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Hello Mr Burton,

Let's see what your misunderstandings are in relation to what I say and write as you seem to have misunderstood a lot of things and misinterpreted your own way.

I am starting with the claim that opinions are presented as matters of fact in the leave campaign. Examples are many. The oppression of the EU is one of them. We will be better out than in, more money for the NHS and Education .All but all are unqualified claims, including all others that I haven't mentioned.

The Brexit campaign was based on a pack of lies, together with large amounts of populism, disinformation, deception, and of course stupidity and idiocy.

Next point: We know very well that Scottish independence doesn't imply automatic membership in the EU. Where do I claim that? Scotland,if they had a vote it will be after we have left the EU.

Negotiations with Scotland in case they would like to join the EU will be very different as the Scots voted to remain in the EU by a good majority. It is to be assumed that the Scots will get some privileges when they join (if they join which is very likely).

You claim the EU is Neoliberal altogether which is not true. Some countries employ Neoliberal policies. And if you can see the irony of this, the country with the most Neoliberal policies is the UK by far!! Only the presence of Boris Johnson in a governemt of right wing and ultra wing ministers is more than enough.

You make a lot of unqualified claims however. I cannot answer all. The oppresion of the EU is one of my favourites.

(*) Let's say this again: If A implies B then B doesn't necessarily imply A. That's for your part 4) argument . Yes we went in under a Conservative Government thanks a large number of labour voters who supported the common market. A very good majority of labour voted at that time for in. And of course a good minority of the Tory voted for in. Likewise the majority of labour voted remain, however much smaller proportion, and again a smaller minority of Tories.

It was always like that i.e the majority of labour in favour of the common market and EU and vice versa for the Conservatives. The fact that we went in when a Tory Government was in power diesntd mean that the Brexit ideas were not originated in the right wing and ultra right wing circles . Most Brexiteers are right wing politicians which is not a coincidence and the other way around in all other parties. Remember Ed Miliband? To his credit his words were:
I don't believe in a EU referendum as it is against the national interest. Even hard line tories said exactly the same such as John Major who doesn't have much belief in the abilities of this government as it seems..

Concluding

Should Scotland break apart from the UK?

Absolutely


Is Brexit something to be cheerful?

I think we should be banging our heads in the wall that we let a group of Charlatans & Morons to play with the future of the country at all levels
I'm happy about brexit and I only gained a secondary level of education, I guess I would be classed by yourself as stupid.
But I personally would rather be stupid than be what some might call an arrogant, classless **** with a superiority complex ( I am by no means saying that those would be my words )
Maybe one day when you grow up and remove that chip you will come to accept the fact that the whole world doesn't revolve around you and your opinions.
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Burton Bridge
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Dear Devil,


Least you admit you cannot answer my questions and points. I find quite surprising for a man of such superior intelligence, I guess I'll just have to repeat many of the points and questions you completely ignore above. Luckily a person of my thick leave voting intellect doesn't have much problem answering yours, go figure


(Original post by Lucifer323)
Hello Mr Burton,


Let's see what your misunderstandings are in relation to what I say and write as you seem to have misunderstood a lot of things and misinterpreted your own way
Oh really

(Original post by Lucifer323)
I am starting with the claim that opinions are presented as matters of fact in the leave campaign. Examples are many. The oppression of the EU is one of them. We will be better out than in, more money for the NHS and Education .All but all are unqualified claims, including all others that I haven't mentioned.


The Brexit campaign was based on a pack of lies, together with large amounts of populism, disinformation, deception, and of course stupidity and idiocy.

Brilliant! So you keep saying, however you dont provide any substance for what you say.

You actually are correct there was, and are huge amounts of misleading and even down right mistruths told to the public at almost every election and political campaign. The only thing is you are blinkered only one seeing ones sides.

It's very difficult to get away from now, it's also difficult to police because we get into the grey area of opinion vs fact. If we ban political figures from voicing opinions and enforce this via a disciplinary process or the judiciary, we will stop all the misleading lies.

That's Good right? Or is it? If we invite political figures to speak on a subject, they are going to become scared to say anything for fear of what they say being later dosproved? This could be with information the person wasn't aware of at the time, how do you prove what the person knows and what they dont? Can you see how this is fataly flawed we would travel a very dangerous path, should choose to select this road. Fortunately most informed learned people understand this so it will never happen.

It is also worth mentioning it is already against rules for a government minister to tell a lie in parliament. I'll try to give an example. If the health Sec said "we have the greatest healthcare system in the world, the NHS is the best" that's an opinion and thats within the rules and OK to say. But if the Health sec were to say "the NHS has the most technologically advanced cancer treatment in the world" that's a statement and upon being disproved the health secretary would have to get up apologise and stand corrected to the house.

Does that help you understand better?
(Original post by Lucifer323)

Next point: We know very well that Scottish independence doesn't imply automatic membership in the EU. Where do I claim that? Scotland,if they had a vote it will be after we have left the EU
You implied it in #1, you seem to think Scottish independence is a euphoria in which Scotland's problems disappear, the EU welcomes you back with open arms and grey sky turns blue! Good luck with the Barnett formula BTW
(Original post by Lucifer323)
Negotiations with Scotland in case they would like to join the EU will be very different as the Scots voted to remain in the EU by a good majority. It is to be assumed that the Scots will get some privileges when they join (if they join which is very likely).
Again you seem politically uninformed, you do realise it isn't solely Scotland's decision to join, the EU are not some Churchill style nodding dog cash machine, you know?.... oh yeeesss!
(Original post by Lucifer323)
You claim the EU is Neoliberal altogether which is not true. Some countries employ Neoliberal policies. And if you can see the irony of this, the country with the most Neoliberal policies is the UK by far!! Only the presence of Boris Johnson in a governemt of right wing and ultra wing ministers is more than enough.
Well it is! It's a trading block for millionaires to trade and play a game if how big is your manhood! The example I gave recently on here was how they enforce a regressive tax system on us by the superiority of EU law. The fact the Tories are more right wing is a strawman.
(Original post by Lucifer323)
You make a lot of unqualified claims however. I cannot answer all. The oppresion of the EU is one of my favourites.
Yea that's great only….. I've never said the EU oppresses us, so is that another strawman or are you confused?
(Original post by Lucifer323)
Yes we went in under a Conservative Government thanks a large number of labour voters who supported the common market. A very good majority of labour voted at that time for in. And of course a good minority of the Tory voted for in. Likewise the majority of labour voted remain, however much smaller proportion, and again a smaller minority of Tories.

It was always like that i.e the majority of labour in favour of the common market and EU and vice versa for the Conservatives. The fact that we went in when a Tory Government was in power diesntd mean that the Brexit ideas were not originated in the right wing and ultra right wing circles . Most Brexiteers are right wing politicians which is not a coincidence and the other way around in all other parties. Remember Ed Miliband? To his credit his words were:

I don't believe in a EU referendum as it is against the national interest. Even hard line tories said exactly the same such as John Major who doesn't have much belief in the abilities of this government as it seems..
Not only do I remember Ed Miliband I was a great supporter of him and his policies. I actively campaigned for him. I'm not sure where you are going here, you mention hard right wing Tories are pro EU and you are correct but at the same time mention modern socialists like Ed Miliband are pro EU too. Which was the exact point I was making to you, you disagreed with, brexit isn't a left vs right issue. I think you have just proved me correct.

Also, you need to brush up on your history. The political field was flipped on its head in the 70's almost all of parliamentary Labour supported "No" (leave) in 1975. I mean to the extremitid of we would never even of had the 1975 referendum in the first place if it wasn't for labour! In particular Tony Benn. You are just misinformed, the only way you could weasel out of that hole if to claim labour voters were in favour of IN (remain) which could be correct, as "in" won with a significant margin. So there I have gave you a way out of that hole.

So that's that now for the points you ignored;

Do you think that maybe people might have voted Conservative, not because they like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson but they saw a Tory government at the least worst option? After Voting Labour in 2017 and then openly watched us, literally ignore our promises on the single biggest issue, Brexit! May came back with a deal that was almost exactly what Labour claimed they wanted, but they opposed it, blocked it, stopped it, belittled their northern voters and then wondered why the simple messages, johnson and co put forward rang a chime in their hearts.

Do realise we couldn't make any trade deals elsewhere until the 31st of jan 2020, dont you?

Do you realise the SNP would of took Scotland out of both unions, and freefall you guys away from the benefits you currently have over England, free prescriptions for just one example?
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Lucifer323
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Hello Mr Burton,

Misconceptions again.

Please read my posts.

Yes in 1975 there was greater support for staying in the common market but again the majority of labour voters voted in just as they voted to remain in the EU. Regardless of the left wing of labour which was Euroskeptic.

For the Tories is a different picture. There is a substantial part of their electorate that gave in to that populist ideas of the far right and voted leave in the 2016 referendum.

Now for the other matters I have answered many times.

Deception, lies, and propaganda which was orchestrated in the right wing circles lead to Brexit. In addition a good portion of labour supporters voted to leave through the art of deception
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Hello Mr Burton,

Misconceptions again.

Please read my posts.
This is why people think you are a troll, I have your posts, clearly you haven't read mine. Which I will now demonstrate.

(Original post by Lucifer323)
Yes in 1975 there was greater support for staying in the common market but again the majority of labour voters voted in just as they voted to remain in the EU. Regardless of the left wing of labour which was Euroskeptic.
:facepalm: This is exactly the way out I gave you!! Have you even read what I have written, are you remotely interested in debate or are just trolling?

(Original post by Lucifer323)
For the Tories is a different picture. There is a substantial part of their electorate that gave in to that populist ideas of the far right and voted leave in the 2016 referendum.
You are comparing apples and pears, in labour you are talking about 1973-5 then when you compare with the Tories you skip forward to 2016!

(Original post by Lucifer323)
Now for the other matters I have answered many times.

Deception, lies, and propaganda which was orchestrated in the right wing circles lead to Brexit. In addition a good portion of labour supporters voted to leave through the art of deception
This is just baseless dribble that has no relation to the ther matters, I.e the progression of the debate, the questions was ignored or flippantly answered at best so I will refocus the debate for the third time for the points you ignored;

Do you think that maybe people might have voted Conservative, not because they like Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson but they saw a Tory government at the least worst option? After Voting Labour in 2017 and then openly watched us, literally ignore our promises on the single biggest issue, Brexit! May came back with a deal that was almost exactly what Labour claimed they wanted, but they opposed it, blocked it, stopped it, belittled their northern voters and then wondered why the simple messages, johnson and co put forward rang a chime in their hearts.

Do realise we couldn't make any trade deals elsewhere until the 31st of jan 2020, dont you?

Do you realise the SNP would of took Scotland out of both unions, and freefall you guys away from the benefits you currently have over England, free prescriptions for just one example?
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L i b
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Hello Mr Quary,

First of all, in an independence referendum, given the outcome is indepedence, the Scots will say goodbye to the English Monarchy and to the likes of Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, Reeg Moss, and Nigel Farage.
Yes, because of course there's never been a centre-right or right-wing politician from Scotland...

Now in terms of Scotland to be modern and independent into my opinion must say bye bye to Monarchy in general. Just like most modern and democratic countries.
By this ridiculous argument, Canada, Australia, Belgium, Denmark, New Zealand, Norway and so on are not 'modern and democratic'. Which is ludicrous. Constitutional monarchies work just as well, if not better, in practice than republics.

Now whether Scotland will be governed by Germany and give away it's freedom to Romania and Bulgaria, these arguments are usually originating by English far right & right circles and constitute incredible propaganda
And the idea that Scotland is subject to "English rule", as you suggested, generally originates with pigeon-brained nativist louts who are - to use a particularly lovely Scottish expression - a blonde bawhair away from donning jackboots and engaging in ethnic cleansing.
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L i b
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Negotiations with Scotland in case they would like to join the EU will be very different as the Scots voted to remain in the EU by a good majority. It is to be assumed that the Scots will get some privileges when they join (if they join which is very likely).
A pretty daft assumption. In many of the new accession states, EU membership has been pretty popular - in some, overwhelmingly so - and this is true of states that are currently attempting to join.

Why would these existing states vote for some sort of special privileges for an independent Scotland? Why should an independent Scotland be granted them while others in queue aren't?


Should Scotland break apart from the UK?

Absolutely

Is Brexit something to be cheerful?

I think we should be banging our heads in the wall that we let a group of Charlatans & Morons to play with the future of the country at all levels
It takes some level of mental gymnastics to say a nationalist departure from one union is terrible, yet the nationalist departure from a closer, more important union is somehow sensible.
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