B1551 – Welfare of Commercial Laying Hens Bill 2020 (Second Reading) Watch

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Joleee
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#21
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thank you for amending section 4(2) but unless it was a bare minimum 2026, i just can't support. there is a reason the last EU directive on battery cages took like 10 years to come into full force and realistically i cannot see incorporating your new dramatic changes in your time-frame without seriously destroying the egg farming industry. no.
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The Mogg
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(Original post by abucha3)
Can you honestly tell me you are comfortable with that sort of practice, just so that a farmer can produce a slightly higher number of inferior eggs? When there is an easy alternative, which means we still eat eggs but at least treat animals in a decent way.
Yup.

It's also interesting how every argument presented is exactly what I said they are, emotional and nothing more. One thing I will do is slightly modify "save the animals dammit" to "make the animals feel a bit better but still slaughter them anyway dammit" So there's that.

On another point, maybe now you could answer Jammy Duel's question.

(Original post by Jammy Duel)
And the question still remains unanswered: what is the inherent issue with cages that means nothing less than a total ban on half of chicken farming must be banned? Until that is answered there is no reason to support this given the main provision is unjustified.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by abucha3)
I think you are being unfair. The purpose of this bill is not driven by some animal activist "save the animals" mantra, but merely introducing sensible regulations to ensure we treat animals we use for commercial purposes in a humane manner.

Surely you are not against treating animals in a humane way? If you are, then where is the line for you with regards to animal humanity? Legislation was recently introduced to make CCTV in abattoirs compulsory because cases came to the surface where sheep were punched in the head; is that acceptable to you, or is that part and parcel of the the slaughtering process?

I would ask the question of anyone opposing this bill, on the basis it goes too far, to tell me where the line is personally for them on animal cruelty.

Caged hens have to live in an area less than the size of an A4 piece of paper, crammed with other hens, prohibiting them from exhibiting natural behaviour. It results in their bones and muscles degenerating. Often hens will then die, and are left to rot along with other birds in the cage. Due to the stress in these cages, hens exhibit unnatural behaviour and are aggressive to other hens; instead of being given more space, the hens have their beaks trimmed without any sort of painkiller.

Can you honestly tell me you are comfortable with that sort of practice, just so that a farmer can produce a slightly higher number of inferior eggs? When there is an easy alternative, which means we still eat eggs but at least treat animals in a decent way.

Please do search images of caged hens, and tell me you are comfortable with the way they are living.

This is a barbaric practice, which we can put to a stop, through voting this bill through.
You still have not said what is the problem with cages, you have said you have a problem with the density of chickens in cages (already regulated)

Why is it that for non-caged animals there is a maximum density whereas for cages there is an outright ban? Simple, there is no reason. Sensible regulation is to set standards, not to ban.

(Original post by CatusStarbright)
Caged hens are notoriously kept in appalling conditions.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...hens/keyissues
Again, that is not a reason for a blanket ban, some people keep their children in appalling conditions, should we ban people from having children as a consequence, or should we stick with what we actually do which is to have minimum standards? You have not stated the issue with cages, you have stated an issue with some caging practices.

(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
A lot of people say free-range chickens taste better than caged chickens.
Which is subjective, I would also wager the majority couldn't tell the difference and would say a free-range egg is worse than a caged egg if you said told them the free range one were caged and vice versa
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Yup.

It's also interesting how every argument presented is exactly what I said they are, emotional and nothing more. One thing I will do is slightly modify "save the animals dammit" to "make the animals feel a bit better but still slaughter them anyway dammit" So there's that.

On another point, maybe now you could answer Jammy Duel's question.
Well why try to come up with a coherent and logical argument when you have the option to try to appeal to the emotion of softies that would probably stop using paper if you told them trees had feelings too.
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abucha3
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
You still have not said what is the problem with cages, you have said you have a problem with the density of chickens in cages (already regulated)

Why is it that for non-caged animals there is a maximum density whereas for cages there is an outright ban? Simple, there is no reason. Sensible regulation is to set standards, not to ban.
Cages prohibit hens from carrying out their natural behaviour. Hens are in their nature, a very social animal, and to be kept in a cage causes them immense distress which results in abnormal aggressive behaviour.

To curb this abnormal behaviour, hens have their beaks trimmed without anaesthetic to stop them from causing damage to other hens.

It is absolutely right that we ban this practice, and treat animals in a basic humane manner.

I accept it may be a struggle for you to understand this, given you come from a party which I suspect would see the return of fox hunting...

Which is subjective, I would also wager the majority couldn't tell the difference and would say a free-range egg is worse than a caged egg if you said told them the free range one were caged and vice versa
Well, let us be thankful that legislation is not made and decided on what you 'wager' or not...
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by The Mogg)
So we're banning something on the basis that some find one to taste better than the other? Besides, a lot of people say that free-range eggs are more expensive than caged, and that ridding of cheaper alternatives because "save the animals dammit" is a bad idea. Trust me when I say if this wasn't a Tory bill I would be voting it down.
That'd be my reason to choose free-range chickens, but I'm not the author. I'd say the argument for it is that because you kill something you still want to do it in a humane way.
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The Mogg
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
That'd be my reason to choose free-range chickens, but I'm not the author. I'd say the argument for it is that because you kill something you still want to do it in a humane way.
Yes, and that's your freedom of choice and that's great. But for those who need to save every penny possible caged eggs is the way to go (I have personal experience with that but I won't delve into it) and taking that option away by law is nothing short of absurd in my view.
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The Mogg
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(Original post by abucha3)
I accept it may be a struggle for you to understand this, given you come from a party which I suspect would see the return of fox hunting...
Pretends to not be in support of the return of fox hunting

Anyway, you needn't speculate about it, they've tried it twice (one by the party and one just by JD) and they both failed by a large margin.
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=5538578
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6009646
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04MR17
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(Original post by Baron of Sealand)
A lot of people say free-range chickens taste better than caged chickens.
I support this bill but your logic here comes straight out of a Trump textbook.
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04MR17
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abucha3
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Yes, and that's your freedom of choice and that's great. But for those who need to save every penny possible caged eggs is the way to go (I have personal experience with that but I won't delve into it) and taking that option away by law is nothing short of absurd in my view.
The difference is less than a £1...
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abucha3
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Pretends to not be in support of the return of fox hunting

Anyway, you needn't speculate about it, they've tried it twice (one by the party and one just by JD) and they both failed by a large margin.
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=5538578
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6009646
Well there we go, I can never expect him to support a humane way of farming eggs from hens, when he supports the killing of animals for fun...
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The Mogg
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(Original post by abucha3)
The difference is less than a £1...
Maybe to yourself £1 is nothing, but to those who struggle to make ends meet on a weekly basis (like my family at one point) having to pay more for various products would have a largely negative effect, and for what? So animal lovers can feel good eating food from animals because "hey they were slaughtered/treated a tad better than before"?
Last edited by The Mogg; 1 week ago
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SankaraInBloom
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Very solid changes, Mr Speaker. In full support of this.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by abucha3)
Cages prohibit hens from carrying out their natural behaviour. Hens are in their nature, a very social animal, and to be kept in a cage causes them immense distress which results in abnormal aggressive behaviour.

To curb this abnormal behaviour, hens have their beaks trimmed without anaesthetic to stop them from causing damage to other hens.

It is absolutely right that we ban this practice, and treat animals in a basic humane manner.

I accept it may be a struggle for you to understand this, given you come from a party which I suspect would see the return of fox hunting...



Well, let us be thankful that legislation is not made and decided on what you 'wager' or not...
Again, you are talking about specific practices that are unrelated to the cages, you can densely pack hens in free range or barn settings, you can trim beaks with or without anaesthetic and then keep them in a barn or a free range setting, but you aren't prohibiting those practices, certainly not the trimming of beaks, you are imposing a blanket ban on a form of storage. If you had a cage the size of your average barn with half a dozen chickens allowed to freely roam within it with unclipped beaks is there an issue? Well according to this bill there is, according to your reasoning for the blanket ban there is not.

We've had it announced today that there will be a ban on placing children in care and under the age of 16 in unregulated homes. Why? Because these homes give insufficient levels of care. The problem: some children in the care system were being given insufficient care due to the practices of an increasing number of councils; the "sensible regulation" in your world to solve it: ban the placing of children needing care in homes by the council; the real sensible regulation: ban the specific practice causing the issue.

(Original post by The Mogg)
Pretends to not be in support of the return of fox hunting

Anyway, you needn't speculate about it, they've tried it twice (one by the party and one just by JD) and they both failed by a large margin.
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=5538578
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6009646
It's been tried more times than that, and it has been passed before, occasionally rationality wins over emotions.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by abucha3)
Well there we go, I can never expect him to support a humane way of farming eggs from hens, when he supports the killing of animals for fun...
Are you a vegan?
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The Mogg
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
It's been tried more times than that, and it has been passed before, occasionally rationality wins over emotions.
Sounds like better times, doubt that'll happen now or in the foreseeable future.
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by The Mogg)
Sounds like better times, doubt that'll happen now or in the foreseeable future.
Not a chance, it was quite quickly repealed again by going "**** the research, think about the fluffy little causer of havoc to hens (to excess)"
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Baron of Sealand
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(Original post by 04MR17)
I support this bill but your logic here comes straight out of a Trump textbook.
I actually did copy his way of speaking with this line. Thanks for noticing.
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The Mogg
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Not a chance, it was quite quickly repealed again by going "**** the research, think about the fluffy little causer of havoc to hens (to excess)"
Well in terms of Era 4 of Hansard, 3rd times a charm. Roll on Hunting Act (Repeal) Bill 2020!
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