do you still get marks for using A Level methods and formula at GCSE Watch

vicvic38
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#21
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#21
(Original post by dextrous63)
Er, helping students with their questions! That's what some of us do on here, in case you hadn't noticed LOL.
What, by imparting the worst view of maths possible (a solution focused one)?

Wow ur soooooo helpful.
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Muttley79
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#22
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#22
(Original post by dextrous63)
In which case exam boards should make it abundantly clear that only the most primitive of calculators are allowed, and manufacturers should build extremely limited calculators with a tiny number of functions.

I taught maths in schools for 25 years and now do private tuition. I spend some of my time helping students learn how to use their calculator efficiently.

Obviously, I play by the rules, and advise students to use the calculator to check their answers to equations etc rather than just write the solution.

But my argument still stands.
I truly hope you aren't telling your tutees to solve equations using a calculator - the rubric is COMPLETELY clear to everyone else.
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vicvic38
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(Original post by Muttley79)
I truly hope you aren't telling your tutees to solve equations using a calculator - the rubric is COMPLETELY clear to everyone else.
If he told me that, I'd exercise my consumer rights, honestly.
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Muttley79
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#24
(Original post by vicvic38)
If he told me that, I'd exercise my consumer rights, honestly.
I agree - here is an excerpt from exam advice issues by Edexcel which teacher should be aware of:

"Working: Your teachers have no doubt told you this, but make sure you write down all your working out; you’d be surprised how many marks you can lose by not doing so. There is no need to be embarrassed by anything you might write; all papers are marked anonymously and all papers are burned after six months. Remember, though, that your school or college might opt to ask for your exam script as part of any review process, so don’t go mad."
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dextrous63
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#25
(Original post by vicvic38)
What, by imparting the worst view of maths possible (a solution focused one)?

Wow ur soooooo helpful.
Charming. Assuming you have the ability to read, you might want to actually comprehend what my argument is. Obviously there is a need for students to understand the processes and develop their skills to think mathematically.

The question is about whether an exam, which tests someone's proficiency in the use of a calculator, should mark people down for using a calculator proficiently!
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dextrous63
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(Original post by Muttley79)
I truly hope you aren't telling your tutees to solve equations using a calculator - the rubric is COMPLETELY clear to everyone else.
Of course not. Well, not until (eg) finding the solutions to a trig question which involves solving a quadratic along the way. In cases such as this, the quadratic is a relative irrelevance in the grand plan of things.
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vicvic38
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#27
(Original post by dextrous63)
Charming. Assuming you have the ability to read, you might want to actually comprehend what my argument is. Obviously there is a need for students to understand the processes and develop their skills to think mathematically.

The question is about whether an exam, which tests someone's proficiency in the use of a calculator, should mark people down for using a calculator proficiently!
You're arguing that people should be able to use equation solvers in exams? It's completely unnecessary. There's little interesting that a GCSE (even on the new GCSE) student can do with the solutions to a quadratic that would take any significant length of time, so you might as well make them write down what they're doing.

Personally, there should be less calculators. At GCSE and A level, I think calculator papers are pretty good, but Further Maths shouldn't have them.
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vicvic38
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#28
(Original post by dextrous63)
Of course not. Well, not until (eg) finding the solutions to a trig question which involves solving a quadratic along the way. In cases such as this, the quadratic is a relative irrelevance in the grand plan of things.
Good job solving it only takes a couple minutes, and is worth marks?
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dextrous63
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#29
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#29
(Original post by vicvic38)
If he told me that, I'd exercise my consumer rights, honestly.
Quite right. Which is why I don't show the power of a calculator to a student unless I am convinced they are competent and confident in their understanding beforehand.
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dextrous63
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#30
(Original post by vicvic38)
Good job solving it only takes a couple minutes, and is worth marks?
Whereas it takes seconds on a calculator. As you know, there comes a point when solving eg quadratics is considered as menial as multiplying two numbers. So, why waste time and effort, and possibly making a daft mistake when you have a tool that will do it efficiently and accurately?
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dextrous63
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(Original post by vicvic38)
You're arguing that people should be able to use equation solvers in exams? It's completely unnecessary. There's little interesting that a GCSE (even on the new GCSE) student can do with the solutions to a quadratic that would take any significant length of time, so you might as well make them write down what they're doing.

Personally, there should be less calculators. At GCSE and A level, I think calculator papers are pretty good, but Further Maths shouldn't have them.
I'm.arguing that since exam boards permit the use of calculators with equation solvers on them, it seems unfair to mark them down for using them.

As for your point about there being less calculators, it is an interesting observation with pros and cons. One could argue that using log tables etc makes one appreciate and develop a feel for the maths involved. On the other hand, it could be argued that the majority of people would benefit by being proficient in the use of the technology developed for their benefit.
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Reality Check
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(Original post by Muttley79)
You'd be foolish to ignore the rubric .... do note that Reality check is an examiner
And just as you probably see in your professional life, candidates lose marks time and time again by not reading and adhering to the rubric despite being told to read it over and over and over and over...
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dextrous63
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(Original post by Reality Check)
And just as you probably see in your professional life, candidates lose marks time and time again by not reading and adhering to the rubric despite being told to read it over and over and over and over...
Quick question for you. Suppose a question was set which required, say, the cosine rule and a candidate wrote down the correct answer but without any form of working out. Would full marks be awarded?
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Reality Check
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#34
(Original post by dextrous63)
Quick question for you. Suppose a question was set which required, say, the cosine rule and a candidate wrote down the correct answer but without any form of working out. Would full marks be awarded?
Muttley79 is better placed to answer that, because it's her area of expertise. I examine science, and a correct answer with no working can be awarded credit: it might be different in maths though. I'm pretty sure some marks would be awarded for the correct answer on its own, but probably not the full allocation.
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Sir Cumference
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#35
(Original post by dextrous63)
Quick question for you. Suppose a question was set which required, say, the cosine rule and a candidate wrote down the correct answer but without any form of working out. Would full marks be awarded?
It depends on the exam board. This is the marking advice for Edexcel GCSE maths:

Questions where working is not required: In general, the correct answer should be given full marks.

Questions that specifically require working: In general, candidates who do not show working on this type of question will get no
marks – full details will be given in the mark scheme for each individual question.

If a question doesn't say e.g. "you must show your working" and it's very unlikely that the student could get the answer by guessing then examiners are told to award full marks even if no method is given. So for a cosine rule (calculator) question where only the correct answer is given with no working, I would expect an Edexcel GCSE examiner to award full marks.

Of course this does not mean that students shouldn't write working for every question. Working marks are awarded if the final answer isn't correct. Exam boards will always tell students to show their working for every question even though many questions don't require working if the final answer is correct.
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dextrous63
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(Original post by Reality Check)
Muttley79 is better placed to answer that, because it's her area of expertise. I examine science, and a correct answer with no working can be awarded credit: it might be different in maths though. I'm pretty sure some marks would be awarded for the correct answer on its own, but probably not the full allocation.
I suspect that full marks would be awarded, since the chance of ending up with the precise correct answer by either guessing, a completely incorrect method or by holding an impromptu seance are negligible. Thus the examiner would have to presume that things had been done properly.

Which is sort of my point about the vagueness of the words "may" and "sufficient".

In any case, the main purpose of showing working out is usually to mitigate the situation when the wrong answer is produced
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Reality Check
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(Original post by Sir Cumference)
It depends on the exam board. This is the marking advice for Edexcel GCSE maths:




If a question doesn't say e.g. "you must show your working" and it's very unlikely that the student could get the answer by guessing then examiners are told to award full marks even if no method is given. So for a cosine rule (calculator) question where only the correct answer is given with no working, I would expect an Edexcel GCSE examiner to award full marks.

Of course this does not mean that students shouldn't write working for every question. Working marks are awarded if the final answer isn't correct. Exam boards will always tell students to show their working for every question even though many questions don't require working if the final answer is correct.
PRSOM
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dextrous63
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#38
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(Original post by Sir Cumference)
If a question doesn't say e.g. "you must show your working" and it's very unlikely that the student could get the answer by guessing then examiners are told to award full marks even if no method is given. So for a cosine rule (calculator) question where only the correct answer is given with no working, I would expect an Edexcel GCSE examiner to award full marks.

Of course this does not mean that students shouldn't write working for every question. Working marks are awarded if the final answer isn't correct. Exam boards will always tell students to show their working for every question even though many questions don't require working if the final answer is correct.
But herein lies the problem. It is not beyond the realms of plausibility for someone to spot the solution to a pair of simultaneous equations by luck. The question asks them to be solved, and they indeed have been. Why should the candidate be penalised when they have done precisely what has been asked.

Similarly for a range of quadratics.

Indeed, on the subject of quadratics, it is a requirement for students to learn by heart the quad formula and apply it. And yet, only a very tiny number of them either GCSE or A level) will have ever seen, yet alone attempted to derive it via completing the square. What a fatuous situation.
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ada_786
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They won’t give you the mark in a normal GCSE paper as it isn’t on the specification.
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Sir Cumference
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(Original post by ada_786)
They won’t give you the mark in a normal GCSE paper as it isn’t on the specification.
This is incorrect. Any mathematically valid method is allowed.
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