The German Question

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Ferrograd
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We've seen recently how far right politics can manifest into violence.

I think we need to look a little deeper at the issue.

If you ask me, the problem is that Germans have never actually confronted the Holocaust and as a result, they are in a constant state of guilt and fear of being labelled fascistic and racist and being compared to the third reich. The ultimate question is: What does it mean to be German?

In my view (and i'm actually on the left), germans have no national or cultural identity anymore. It has nothing to do with migration since 2015 either. It's to do with the fact that they've created some fake, false identity based around concepts such as tolerance, liberalism and multiculturalism rather than traditional German culture. As in, pre Nazi culture. If you look at Russia, it is very well...Russian. If you go to Germany, well, you could be anywhere. You could be in any country in Germany. Which obviously has its postiives and negatives, but the lack of national identity has helped the far right to fester in Germany. Moderates, centrists, liberals, leftists etc should reclaim traditional german culture so that it cannot be propogated by the far right in a negative way. Germans shouldn't let the history of an entire nation and people be defined by a very dark, 12 year period that ultimately was borne out of economic frustration, but was hijacked by Hitler's nazis so that a mass genocide could be committed. Just as we don't let British history be defined by the horrors of colonialism, Germans, whilst recognising the horrors of the holocaust, should understand that their history goes beyond that.
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Reality Check
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
If you go to Germany, well, you could be anywhere. You could be in any country in Germany. Which obviously has its postiives and negatives, but the lack of national identity has helped the far right to fester in Germany.
Most of this just isn't true. Have you every actually been to Germany? If you go to Bavaria, I think you'll find quite a bit of distinctive 'German-ness', and I can assure you that you could only be in one country!

I don't quite know where you've got these funny ideas about German people and their culture from.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by Reality Check)
Most of this just isn't true. Have you every actually been to Germany? If you go to Bavaria, I think you'll find quite a bit of distinctive 'German-ness', and I can assure you that you could only be in one country!

I don't quite know where you've got these funny ideas about German people and their culture from.
Of course, there are parts that are more German than others. But as a whole, Germany is still two different countries. The East German authorities failed to do enough to confront the horrors of the holocaust, coupled with the fact East Germany was very homogenous, meant uniting with a totally different state with far more diversity was never going to go down well.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by Reality Check)
Most of this just isn't true. Have you every actually been to Germany? If you go to Bavaria, I think you'll find quite a bit of distinctive 'German-ness', and I can assure you that you could only be in one country!

I don't quite know where you've got these funny ideas about German people and their culture from.
Also, I'm saying as a whole with regards to their national identity.
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Ascend
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All your questions are answered through the lyrics of Germany's most popular band, Rammstein.
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Reality Check
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(Original post by Ascend)
All your questions are answered through the lyrics of Germany's most popular band, Rammstein.
:laugh: I love a bit of Neue Deutsche Härte!
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Onde
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StriderHort
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(Original post by Reality Check)
:laugh: I love a bit of Neue Deutsche Härte!
I can tolerate the KMFDM remixes and nothing else :rolleyes:
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Reality Check
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(Original post by StriderHort)
I can tolerate the KMFDM remixes and nothing else :rolleyes:
:laugh:
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econhelp525
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(Original post by Onde)
What does this prove? Germany isn't threatened by any country, so Germany wouldn't even need to go to war in the first place.

How was the questioned asked? A defensive, or an offensive war? Seems vague to me, and if you were German, you would also have to make an assumption of what the question meant. Since Germany isn't threatened by any one, it would be wise to assume that they would take the question as asking if they would participate in an offensive war. Most people do not want to do that.

Notice how countries on the border with Russia or are threatened by Russia have a much higher willingness to fight. That's because they assume it to be a defensive war.

Your map is therefore a nonsense that tells us nothing.
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Onde
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(Original post by econhelp525)
What does this prove? Germany isn't threatened by any country, so Germany wouldn't even need to go to war in the first place.

How was the questioned asked? A defensive, or an offensive war? Seems vague to me, and if you were German, you would also have to make an assumption of what the question meant. Since Germany isn't threatened by any one, it would be wise to assume that they would take the question as asking if they would participate in an offensive war. Most people do not want to do that.

Notice how countries on the border with Russia or are threatened by Russia have a much higher willingness to fight. That's because they assume it to be a defensive war.

Your map is therefore a nonsense that tells us nothing.
I had thought the question was unambiguous.
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econhelp525
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(Original post by Onde)
I had thought the question was unambiguous.
For the reasons I stated, it is not.
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Onde
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(Original post by econhelp525)
For the reasons I stated, it is not.
The German desire to fight is significantly lower even to most neighbouring countries. It is significantly lower than the UK. In the context of the OP therefore, I wonder why there is a particular emphasis on Germany.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by econhelp525)
What does this prove? Germany isn't threatened by any country, so Germany wouldn't even need to go to war in the first place.

How was the questioned asked? A defensive, or an offensive war? Seems vague to me, and if you were German, you would also have to make an assumption of what the question meant. Since Germany isn't threatened by any one, it would be wise to assume that they would take the question as asking if they would participate in an offensive war. Most people do not want to do that.

Notice how countries on the border with Russia or are threatened by Russia have a much higher willingness to fight. That's because they assume it to be a defensive war.

Your map is therefore a nonsense that tells us nothing.
Ireland isn't threatened by anyone, especially given its neutrality, so why are more people prepared to fight for it than britain?
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OctoberRain7
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
Ireland isn't threatened by anyone, especially given its neutrality, so why are more people prepared to fight for it than britain?
I think quite a few people in Ireland would assume they would fight to defend the country from the UK again.
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Jack22031994
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When Im in Germany, I know I'm in Germany. I am failing to see your point
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by Jack22031994)
When Im in Germany, I know I'm in Germany. I am failing to see your point
My point is that as a nation, the whole idea of German identity is nonexistent in that country. People are afraid of being patriotic etc because of the connotations of Nazism. As such, it is pushed underground where it manifests itself into extremism and violence
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Jack22031994
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
My point is that as a nation, the whole idea of German identity is nonexistent in that country. People are afraid of being patriotic etc because of the connotations of Nazism. As such, it is pushed underground where it manifests itself into extremism and violence
I mean you could say the same for the UK (Or England at least) It isnt just Germany
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Ferrograd)
We've seen recently how far right politics can manifest into violence.

I think we need to look a little deeper at the issue.

If you ask me, the problem is that Germans have never actually confronted the Holocaust and as a result, they are in a constant state of guilt and fear of being labelled fascistic and racist and being compared to the third reich. The ultimate question is: What does it mean to be German?

In my view (and i'm actually on the left), germans have no national or cultural identity anymore. It has nothing to do with migration since 2015 either. It's to do with the fact that they've created some fake, false identity based around concepts such as tolerance, liberalism and multiculturalism rather than traditional German culture. As in, pre Nazi culture. If you look at Russia, it is very well...Russian. If you go to Germany, well, you could be anywhere. You could be in any country in Germany. Which obviously has its postiives and negatives, but the lack of national identity has helped the far right to fester in Germany. Moderates, centrists, liberals, leftists etc should reclaim traditional german culture so that it cannot be propogated by the far right in a negative way. Germans shouldn't let the history of an entire nation and people be defined by a very dark, 12 year period that ultimately was borne out of economic frustration, but was hijacked by Hitler's nazis so that a mass genocide could be committed. Just as we don't let British history be defined by the horrors of colonialism, Germans, whilst recognising the horrors of the holocaust, should understand that their history goes beyond that.
I don't think this is true. I don't agree that false identity based around concepts such as tolerance, liberalism and multiculturalism rather than traditional German culture is accurate and the issue stems from post-World War political decision-making.

I think Germany after the both world wars had been so maligned by the view that they were responsible for the conflict that they literally had to go through a rebirth. I watched a documentary about post-War Germany and it was horrible, they were viewed as pariahs and this was coupled with the fact that they were occupied by Western forces after the war.

The reaction of the Germans to show remorse and re-establish themselves was to open up quicker than normal. They also had to steer clear for policies or initiatives that linked to a nationalistic view of themselves due to the horrors that had occurred fews years prior.

Personally, I think Germany seem to have done more to address their history and made changes to avoid repeating the past. This is different to the UK, where we seem to have either rewritten history to paint us in a good way or to portray our involvement in past horrors as “inevitable” thereby not really being our faults.

Finally, I think there is still the present of “German-ness” with the language, culture, political system and values. They seem to have done a lot to maintain a united domestic front whilst embracing the dynamism of a changing world.
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Ferrograd
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(Original post by Jack22031994)
I mean you could say the same for the UK (Or England at least) It isnt just Germany
To a degree, but most people don't have a problem with waving British flags or singing the national anthem. I mean, people literally aren't allowed to sing the first verse of the German national anthem because "Deustschland uber alles" (germany above all) has been interpreted by many to reference aryan and german supremacy. in reality, this dates back to pre 1871 as germany being the best of ALL the german states
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