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Reply 20
getting a 1st at oxbridge is surely harder than getting a 1st at say Newport.

i mean sum ppl were saying that maths is completely different/more difficult at oxford
Lawzzzzzz
Very few get firsts? What is the % for your course? At undergrad level for law, its about 15% - not that rare really. Its a lot hihger than other top unis.

I would totally agree that not all those who apply will be worthy of a place - there are just too many applications.


Don't know where your getting your figures from - last year 12 people (in first year) got firsts in law at Cambridge out of 250, which is less than 5%. Even if the figure was 15% what university is giving less firsts than this? It's especially harsh considering these are generally the best law applicants in the country (a point which applies across the range of subjects).

As for 'tossing a coin', Steven Schwartz couldn't find his ass with both hands - he has nothing to say thats worth listening to.
Reply 22
KaiserSoze
Don't know where your getting your figures from - last year 12 people (in first year) got firsts in law at Cambridge out of 250, which is less than 5%. Even if the figure was 15% what university is giving less firsts than this? It's especially harsh considering these are generally the best law applicants in the country (a point which applies across the range of subjects).

As for 'tossing a coin', Steven Schwartz couldn't find his ass with both hands - he has nothing to say thats worth listening to.


If you care to notice, he is actually at Oxford.
Reply 23
Schwartz is at Brunel.
Reply 24
RxB
Schwartz is at Brunel.


yes, but Lawzzzzz is at Oxford. You're a bit slow today! :tongue:
Reply 25
S@sha
yes, but Lawzzzzz is at Oxford. You're a bit slow today! :tongue:

It's early...
Alaric
Well yeah I didn't see any point to my interview at Southampton, they even said before the interviews that we'd all be getting offers. So I didn't really understand why I was there, had a nice chat though. Would have been better if they'd given me coffee to chat with :rolleyes:

Yeah, I remember going down for my philosophy "interview" one or two weeks ago...
It was more of a social one, no real challenging questions etc.
Though mine lasted half an hour, not 15 mins - I went in the same time as another guy,
and as I left I saw the person who went after him leaving too! :tongue:


TBH, I think it was to get students with offers to see the place, which might make them more likely to actually *go*.
In fact, they even put a little survery round to this effect. But wait a minute - we weren't actually TOLD we'd been given offers yet!
Oh well, no matter - Soton is still my 5th choice, lol. :rolleyes:
S@sha
If you care to notice, he is actually at Oxford.


I did care to notice - and the conversation is about oxbridge.

I can't be held liable for the ways of the other place, strange that they are... :smile:

As for interviews - at most places yeah they do just seem to be an overblown open day, but at oxbridge they really are challenging - surely they can only help to allow the admissions tutors make an informed decision?
To those dissing the article, can I draw your attention to this part:
An American university which had selected half of a group of equally-qualified students by interview and chose the rest at random had found after a year that it was impossible to distinguish between their results.

I don't know how big that group was or how rigorous their process, but that seems like some reasonably strong evidence for the coin-tossing procedure! I don't like the idea of coin-tossing, not one bit - who would? But if interviewing really doesn't serve any purpose in picking the best candidates, it seems that it's essentially the same thing - except that coin-tossing prevents people who've had interview preparation from gaining an unfair advantage.
Reply 29
ThePants999
To those dissing the article, can I draw your attention to this part:

I don't know how big that group was or how rigorous their process, but that seems like some reasonably strong evidence for the coin-tossing procedure! I don't like the idea of coin-tossing, not one bit - who would? But if interviewing really doesn't serve any purpose in picking the best candidates, it seems that it's essentially the same thing - except that coin-tossing prevents people who've had interview preparation from gaining an unfair advantage.


For a start, don't really agree with the practice of "I've no idea about the ligitimacy of their techniques, but I'll assume they're fine". In this case, your assumption is almost certainly wrong. American interviews are a joke. They're not conducted by faculty members, but by alumni; they don't have a specific purpose, being described as purely an informal chat; they're not even an obligatory part of the admissions process! So it's no wonder they're not very good at assessing potential - they're not designed to do it. Furthermore, US universities have far more detailed information about students than British ones (multiple teacher references, reference letters, extra-curricular information, amongst other things) and, most importantly, different methods of deciding how well students are doing well in university. For Oxbridge, with their incredibly academic focused courses and assessment by a very intense, hard set of examinations, interviews are a bloody good way of deciding suitability. The American research is so distant from this as to be irrelevant.
Actually, it was more a practice of "I've no idea about the legitimacy of their techniques, so I'll assume they've made a valid point until somebody provides an effective counter-argument." Nobody had done so thus far. You now have, thank you very much.
...and at least I highlighted that I was unsure of the legitimacy of their techniques, rather than just asserting that they were right as I expect many people would have done!
Reply 32
ThePants999
Actually, it was more a practice of "I've no idea about the legitimacy of their techniques, so I'll assume they've made a valid point until somebody provides an effective counter-argument." Nobody had done so thus far. You now have, thank you very much.


Fair enough. My approach with any sort of research tends to be scepticism first, just because it's an unfortunate fact that because research money is so scrace today research is very often done in order to prove a preconception.

EDIT: Okay, I seem to have been a bit overagressive in my tone, judging by your responses. Apologies for this, did not mean to have a go, just to point out US interviews and Oxbridge interviews really are different kettles of fish (that's the most bizzare phrase I've ever heard, now I think about it). So again, sorry...any agressiveness can be purely atrributed to a lack of sleep and spending hours searching for my phone (which I have now found :smile:).
Reply 33
Are you hungry H&E? Hope the Chef ain't annoyed this evening! Otherwise I hope your digestive system is healthy :wink:
H&E
The American research is so distant from this as to be irrelevant.


Exactly - to be honest there aren't many universities anywhere (maybe top US ones, and london) where the interview process seriously determines your place - the fact is that at Oxbridge they are *the* method of selection as everybody's pretty good on paper, and are conducted with an according level of detail and dificulty.

Hate to be a cynic, but this looks like typical government 'most places don't find practice A very useful/aren't very good at it, so lets use their reseach to undermine successful institution B where its done well, but that we hate' rhetoric.
In truth, I'd go as far to say that even at Oxbridge the interview stage isn't as central as people like to make out. I've always been of the belief that a fair proportion of interviewees could go into the interviews safe in the knowledge that as long as they don't completely cock up, they're basically in. Certainly from my experience, if a candidate was go to in with excellent written work and grades, along with a good personal statement and reference (though I would consider both minor factors in admission); that place is their's to throw anyway.
BazTheMoney
In truth, I'd go as far to say that even at Oxbridge the interview stage isn't as central as people like to make out. I've always been of the belief that a fair proportion of interviewees could go into the interviews safe in the knowledge that as long as they don't completely cock up, they're basically in. Certainly from my experience, if a candidate was go to in with excellent written work and grades, along with a good personal statement and reference (though I would consider both minor factors in admission); that place is their's to throw anyway.

:smile: I think you're right :smile:
Reply 37
ThePants999
To those dissing the article, can I draw your attention to this part:

I don't know how big that group was or how rigorous their process, but that seems like some reasonably strong evidence for the coin-tossing procedure! I don't like the idea of coin-tossing, not one bit - who would? But if interviewing really doesn't serve any purpose in picking the best candidates, it seems that it's essentially the same thing - except that coin-tossing prevents people who've had interview preparation from gaining an unfair advantage.


I don’t understand. If the interview doesn’t help select the superior candidate - but equally fails to select inferior ones - then what harm does it do? Why the strong objection to it, apart from the possibility it may be a waste of time?

It makes no sense to say that candidates gain an unfair advantage; the study ITSELF shows no difference between those chosen through interview, and those chosen by another method.

Additionally, the form and use of interviews will vary widely - I think it is fairly presumptuous to assume that the interview process as studied in the states can be automatically equated with those employed by Oxbridge.
MadNatSci
:smile: I think you're right :smile:

I should add...

That doesn't mean interviews aren't important - they are - but it's a fallacy to suggest you need to pull out an abolute stormer of a performance to get offered a placed; because you don't. Other factors aren taken into account - not everybody starts the interview process "equal".
Reply 39
BazTheMoney
I should add...

That doesn't mean interviews aren't important - they are - but it's a fallacy to suggest you need to pull out an abolute stormer of a performance to get offered a placed; because you don't. Other factors aren taken into account - not everybody starts the interview process "equal".


So... what kind of thing would prejudice them in one's favour? Presumably not grades, since the vast majority of applicants will have all As at AS-Level.

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